Mike Isaac (NYT) Joins, Earnings Review, Beautiful Data Centers, Coatue is Land Maxxing

I see a large IPM on the horizon. You're surrounded by journalists. Hold your position. That's misinformation. >> Courtney declaring order inbound. >> That's just wrong. >> We are surrounded by journalists. Hold your position. Come get up. Trust the experts. Five. We are for founder mode five. I see multiple journalists on the horizon. Standby. >> UAV online. >> Blaze. >> Double blaze. Triple blaze. Double kill. Cook is Team Deathmatch. We are experts. Triple blades. Let's just roll. Right. Mark clearing order inbound. Get up. >> We are surrounded by journalists. Hold your position. Break one. Strike two. >> Activate golden retriever mode. Market clearing order inbound. >> Five puter. You're watching TVN. Today's Friday, May 1st, 2026. We are just barely live from the TVP and Ultradome, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital capital. We had to rush back from stripe sessions. Fantastic interview with the Collison brothers, many others yesterday. Go check it out if you haven't already. Uh, fun stuff. We didn't go nearly deep enough on the whole Cosian singularity. There's a debate on the timeline about it. We can get into it later. Uh we we need to have some more economists on the show to break it down for us. Uh but this is their big pitch. Firms get smaller and the future the the the coast theory of the firm. Anyway, if you studied economics, you might be familiar, but uh it's jargon and you're going to be hearing a lot more of it in the singular. >> A lot of mumbo jumbo. >> I'm not even going to try I'm not even going to try. Well, here's some uh here's some less mumbo jumbo. Uh, tech earnings, quadkill recap, four in one day. Uh, last time this happened, I think it was 2020. Four big tech companies all same day. It is random. No one really knows why. Uh, it just sort of lines up. It's like a solar eclipse. >> Can you use astrology to predict the next one? >> Potentially. Potentially. You would have to imagine it's some something around the alignment of the the planets that cause >> more like the holidays. More like the holidays because books close then certain things line up. Also like Nvidia is never in the competition. They're always like two or three weeks later. But anyway, uh let's go through what actually happened. Google was the big winner. They absolutely crushed the stocks up 10% in the last couple days. Really successful. Uh and there's a few reasons. Uh so the core business is still growing. Google search. This was the question of is AI are chat bots going to be eating into the core Google search revenue the core business that drives all the other investments. The answer is unequivocally no. Uh Google search and other revenue was 6.4 billion. Yeah. Uh up 19% year-over-year. I mean two years ago there was the whole like Google search is dead thesis. Uh that has not been borne out at least this year. Uh very very strong results there. Then Google cloud is like the major story. So much so that uh take him when he uh did his earnings recap, he didn't even talk about toplines at Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. He just says Google Cloud revenue 63% year-over-year. Amazon Web Services 28% year-over-year. Azure 40% year-over-year. And then meta overall revenue, which we'll get into 33% year-over-year. So he's not even looking at the at the rest of the business. all that matters for the three major public clouds um are are th are those cloud businesses uh not even uh anything anything specific uh within the uh within the overall business. So uh long story short, higher capex at Google totally justified in a world of cloud acceleration backlog growth is huge. Uh cloud backlog uh nearly doubled to more than $460 billion. And importantly this isn't like a 5-year 10-year contract type thing. Half of that more than half of that backlog is expected to be recognized in the next 24 months. So really good news there. Uh Google Cloud hit 20 billion up 63%. Now it is smaller than Amazon and that's why AWS is uh is you know people are hunting for high 20 growth rates maybe begins with a three uh in Google it's smaller so it can grow 63% but that's still fantastic and uh cloud operating income was 6.6 six billion which is very strong margin. So everything is looking good. Search durability, demand for AI infrastructure, it's the full stack AI play right now. Uh Microsoft showed solid execution, but they didn't dramatically change any particular narrative. I think a lot of this goes to like the the the just naturally slow deployment of enterprise AI, but this is the focus for Microsoft. They are the enterprise AI uh play. >> Yeah. One one thing was notable is they weren't they weren't heavily teasing anything related to the next Gemini uh release. >> Yeah, I I they wouldn't tease that at earn. >> No, no, they have they have historically. So >> anyways, uh maybe they maybe they want to let the model speak for itself. >> Yeah, probably announced Gemini 4, I would imagine, uh announced it uh >> or a coding specific model. >> Yeah. Yeah, something there. I mean, there's certainly demand for it. they have the capacity, there's lots of opportunity. Uh we'll probably be following that in three weeks when Google IO happens. So Microsoft uh investors wanted to see Azure growth, co-pilot adoption, and a solid justification for all the capex. Uh the stocks down 2%, nothing crazy, but uh Microsoft beat on headline numbers. Revenue was 82.9 billion, up 18% year-over-year. Uh and from an analyst perspective, it was a clean beat. Um, but there's more nuance here. So, in terms of AI adoption, Microsoft added about >> Look at this beautiful LED wall. >> Million. Yeah, let's get it up to the >> still underrated. We ordered this bad boy maybe like six months ago. >> Months ago. Took a while. Quite a while, >> but it is fun. We We need to figure out more things to do with it. Um, we uh so uh on co-pilot adoption, this is the big question. So for Microsoft 365 like total seats you know you think about Microsoft Teams Outlook like the standard Microsoft enterprise seat I think it's about $30 per user per month competes with uh Google apps enterprise right but Microsoft's been doing this for much longer they have 450 million paid seats so in terms of co-pilot they added five million which is great they're at 20 million now so that's solid adoption but it's still small compared to the 450 paid seats ideally like every seat would have a co-pilot alongside of it that I mean that's the idea right uh and so the question is how quickly can they get that 20 million co-pilot seats up to 200 million 400 million you know ideally everyone has one of these add-on subscriptions and that's lifting the overall business uh market reaction was a bit choppy uh as the new open AI relationship gets digested and so there's two sides to the Microsoft OpenAI deal right now. Of course, uh, OpenAI is no longer limited to selling just through Azure. Azure no longer has exclusive access to OpenAI models. OpenAI is now available on AWS as well. And it's and it cuts both ways. So, on one hand, uh, Microsoft, you know, they used to be the exclusive provider. If you're a sales guy at Microsoft on Azure, you're probably really excited to call somebody up and say, "Hey, you want to use GPT 5.5? We're the only place in town like like you should come over here. you should migrate more of your infrastructure. You should be using Azure. But it was probably frustrating because a lot of people say, "No, we're locked into AWS. We are stuck in that cloud and we'd love to, but we'll just use the API directly or we'll do we'll figure out some other workaround, but we're not moving for this." >> Yeah. Or people could be like, "Yeah, we're we're we're open to trying it, but it'll take, you know, a couple quarters realistically to get to get ramped up." >> Yeah. And so from an Azure perspective, losing exclusivity is a negative, but from a business perspective, uh the more growth for OpenAI is good for Microsoft's equity stake in the company. And so these two tensions like the the capital balance sheet side of the business versus the Azure sales and acceleration side of the business like these two are co-pilot versus codeex. >> Sure. Yeah. And so these two these two sides of the business are sort of uh butdding up against each other and Satin Nadella ultimately has to go and un unh you know renegotiate the contract and they did and it seems like they're in a good place because uh a lot of people were sort of saying like oh well is this going to get messy? Is there some going to be some lawsuit here? It seems like there was a very clean negotiation renegotiation and uh they openAI got rid of the AGI clause that allows them to to stop uh sharing models but they are sharing revenue and there uh like like the the overall deal. >> Yeah. Basically the the I think 2032 end date. >> Yeah. Is just >> the IP share instead of this like arbitrary >> Yep. >> AGI. >> Uh so over at Amazon, Amazon still of course the capex king. They top the capex forecast. Uh but as scary as that would be, AWS is reacelerating and so that's very good news. So uh the stock moved slightly upwards. Uh Q1 2026 sales for Amazon overall were 181.5 billion for the quarter. For the quarter they're they're like on track to make a trillion in revenue soon. Um up 17% year-over-year, beating expectations. AWS is expected to see 25% growth. That was the expectation, 25%, that's sort of where they've been. They came in at 28%. So they beat on AWS growth and that's really really important especially for their scale. This was very good news. Uh the ads business is still cooking uh churned out 17.2 billion in revenue and the chips business just crossed 20 billion run rate which is very very good and they have big deals. AWS is in this interesting position less of this like Google pure play full stack and more focused on uh working with both open AI and anthropic at this point. And so that all justifies more investments in tranium and AI infrastructure broadly and the market seems to like it. Huge capex numbers but reasonable response from the market and the stock. So Meta Meta had a rough go huge drop nearly 10% down following earnings. It's sort of jumping up and down now but uh the core business uh was extremely strong. So Q1 revenue was uh 56.3 billion up 33% year-over-year. So high growth for the overall business. Um, ad impressions rose 19%, average price per ad rose 12%. They raised the capex outlook from uh this they have this range. It's within $10 billion of 125. They added 10 billion to both. So instead of saying, hey, we'll be between 115 and 135. Now they're saying we're going to be between 125 and 145. Now will they actually get more compute for that or is that just a reflection of rising prices for all the inputs that go into compute spending? That's a big debate because there's one bullcase where oh they're optimistic they're going to buy more compute but it's like no there's a possibility that they're just spending more to get the same amount of compute as they thought. But the big problem for shareholders, the big answer is it's not as clean of a >> Can you imagine? Just take one second and imagine that Meta is a private company and their pitch is that we make AI agents for >> uh selling products >> and they're doing $200 billion. They're at a $200 billion run rate growing 33% a year. >> Yeah. >> How is it priced? >> 20 trillion >> probably. probably >> with those operating margins. I'm joking. Uh it it truly is one of the most incredible businesses Yeah. of all time. But >> they don't have but people Yeah. Yeah. They don't have they don't have the cloud thing. People are he he's he's kind of acting like the most AGI pill CEO like like hyperscaler CEO, right? >> Yeah. >> Um >> he he was talking about like basically talking about like RSI on the earnings call. He's like it's not just about like cod, you know, coding like he really seemingly believes and he doesn't want to be in a position where >> someone else has actual super intelligence and he does not. >> Yeah. And so >> and and that's just like a little bit too fuzzy because when you look in the rest of the market right now, it's like productivity tools. Yeah. Right. >> And so the market just like can't really read into it. Yeah. >> And they're just kind of like not even giving him full credit for the business that he has. >> Yeah. And I forget if he's ever mentioned the idea of of selling tokens, selling AI infrastructure, getting in the cloud market, but it's way easier for an AWS. >> He kind of loosely mentioned that last year >> when he was like starting to ramp stuff up, like ba basically saying like maybe we could do this at some point. >> Yeah. because it's way easier to justify the the capex at Amazon when you say oh well like you know if you know regardless of how this market plays out maybe anthropic takes some of the compute maybe open AI takes the compute maybe there's a whole bunch of new uh AI labs that take compute maybe we'll use it for our services our own models if models commoditize it's still valuable if they don't it's still valuable there's a whole bunch of different ways to to shift that capex around and justify it meta it's got to show up in the AI figures. It's got to show up in the ad business at least right now. Uh and so there's there are questions about how the big capex spend feeds back into cash flow when the company doesn't have a platform with big enterprise AI contracts, massive RPO figures. There's not an easy place to just like stuff compute necessarily and at least get uh you know a market standard uh like return on investment. Um of course they could spin up reselling. they could become a neo cloud or something like that, but uh at their scale it's a it's a whole new host of challenges if they go that direction. And I think that that's not the plan. I think you're you're you're dialing into it that they are in fact uh recursive self-improvement pled at this point. Um, and so the other the other sort of uh tremor in the system was the fact that daily active people, which is something that they were it's not users anymore. It's DAP, daily active people, uh, declined sequentially since the first time that Meta began reporting the metric. So less people were using Meta platforms uh, this quarter than previously. Um, but they had some good explanations for it. They said that there were internet disruptions in Iran and WhatsApp restrictions in Russia. And so this was not representative of a real change in internet user behavior. And I think we all uh recognize that that is reality in the sense that there's not some upand cominging social network that's eating meta platforms family of apps lunch, right? Like the Tik Tok threat came and sort of went. The Snapchat threat came and sort of went. >> Sora >> Sora came and went, right? And so there there was a different post I saw that uh social media use is declining especially under young people but it was already so high it's not really showing up. >> Truly it will truly be insane if we get this new alien technology. We get LLMs which in digital form can uh convince you that they are a person. >> Yeah. And we would and and and we end up getting no new big social platforms like >> that just strengthen the current ones. >> Well, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean I think that's the base case right now, but it's still wild. I think you would expect I think again if you rewound >> to like 2020 and you said, "Hey, we're going to have this technology where you can effectively have a digital twin of yourself. You would think that somebody would figure out some new >> Yeah, maybe. >> I I I I continue to think it just strengthens the incumbent's roadblocks. Instagram, WhatsApp, Facebook, like these platforms will just get more content on them that will probably be LLM generated, LLM enhanced. Even if it's not LLM written or developed, it's it's, you know, a creator taking less time doing other boring things and spending more time on their core output. So, uh, we'll keep tracking it. Um, so overall, what what what did we learn this earning season? Uh one possible takeaway is that there's a little bit of a fracturing in the overall AI narrative. So uh the AI narrative over the last 12 months has basically been like say the biggest number, biggest capex number, biggest deals, just grow grow. Now every uh every hyperscaler reports a big capex number, but each company does have a different story. So Google's the full stack platform. Microsoft's focused on enterprise adoption and distribution. Amazon's most aggressive on infrastructure and partnerships with OpenAI and Anthropic. They have the the cleanest, less uh it's a less competitive relationship with Anthropic and OpenAI because they don't have the Deep Mind equivalent necessarily. Um Meta is all about ad optimization. And Meta is also this this interesting like high-risk option on Frontier AI. Like it's possible that if TBD Labs, MSL, if that pays off, you wind up getting an OpenAI sized or anthropic sized business out of it in the igopoly world where they have a breakthrough. They get to something that's 55 or 47 level and then they're competing at in an equal level and they're playing in that igopoly. Um, and so you like the meta traders are sort of or the investors are sort of weighing both of those sides. you have a very solid ads business and then you have this call option on uh potential frontier AI uh which is still early but showing some really solid signs. So uh the market likes short-term revenue evidence right now and there's still many strategies that will play out over the rest of the year but uh this quarter was focused on uh can you justify your capex this quarter and so we'll keep following it. Um let's go over the timeline and see what people were saying. The headline numbers of course were huge cloud growth. AWS 28%, GCP 63%, Azure at 40%. Uh, a absolutely massive numbers. Uh, remember people were hoping for GCP to be at 40% and it went up 63%. Absolutely massive. Uh, AWS people are hoping for 30, they got 28. Not too bad. Um, take him, we mentioned you can go subscribe to his Substack at takehim.substack.com. He has a write up on the state of AI after Google, Meta, M Amazon, and Microsoft earnings. And uh >> take him been right a lot lately. >> Been doing well. Uh and uh and and there's some people uh reflecting on, you know, crazy run-ups, crazy numbers, crazy hype. Is this the dot bubble? Always fun to go back and comp to previous bubbles. The.com one is is still fresh for a lot of people because some people in tech were alive during it. Many people in tech were in live alive during it. But uh this uh this poster Ren is comparing the price to earnings multiples today versus the dot boom. So today's MAG 4 PE ratios, the companies that reported earnings. Uh Meta's at 16x price to earnings, Google's at 17x, Amazon's at 24, and Microsoft's at 25 price toearnings ratio. Compare that to during the dot. Microsoft was at 73x. Cisco was at 200x plus. Yahoo was trading at 800x earnings. Uh the NASDAQ as a whole traded at 200 times earnings during the peak of the dotcom bubble. Uh today's bubble is trading at 16 to 25x earnings on companies generating hundreds of billions of dollars of real cash flow. Now they're drawing down on that cash flow. But even in some bizarre world where, you know, AI is a bubble and it's fake and we all go back to pencil and paper, uh, we'll probably go back to digital advertising and spreadsheets in the cloud and, you know, SAS and, uh, all of these companies will still benefit and be in fantastic position. Yeah, the the only thing that that's you know or one thing that's imperfect with these comparisons is uh when you look at like the peak you can say like okay Meta Google, Amazon and and Microsoft have relatively reasonable PE ratios. Yeah. But if you look at the rest of you look at all the companies that have been started in the last like five years especially in the private markets that have been marked up from you know 20 to 100 to 500 to a billion and beyond many of them have absolutely no earnings. >> Yeah. >> And uh and are and are um and so you have to look at like maybe something more like a Yahoo as like a decent comp, right? Where Yahoo was trading at peak at 800x. Yeah. >> And so um There is some there is some push back in the in the replies here. Reasonous for says AMD is at 130, Tesla's at 350, Palunteer's at 220, and Intel is at 900 times earnings. >> I know. So, it's like very very convenient to just >> take the four of the greatest companies ever in the history of the world and say like there's no bubble like they're they're reasonably priced. Yeah, I think it is it is it is useful to go back to the fact that like there that there's there's a lot of hype in tech, but what's driving the vast majority of the market cap right now is still fairly low PE companies. Like Intel is so much smaller on a market cap basis than Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Meta that even if you're overpaying on earnings for that, you like the the overall market is anchored to a pretty decent earnings engine still. And that's like the bullcase here. Um, what else is going on? Uh, I'm >> George George hot is back with a white pill. >> What do you say? >> May 1st. He says AI will create jobs. says, "It's nice to see Jensen talk about this and it's super obvious when you think about it. AI and immigration are fundamentally the same. There's new people showing up and hopefully everyone understands how and why immigration creates jobs. Wants are effectively unlimited. It's classic Jevans paradox that if we make something more efficient, we end up using more of it. Or a cool apherism I learned at Facebook, if you make the site 10% faster, people spend 5% more total time on it. >> It's funny, he worked at Facebook for he was like an intern. >> He's part of the machine. Now, just like you get the waw wa crying people about how immigration lowers wages for native born Americans, and we got to keep the hardworking immigrants out because you have some right to be lazy or something, you'll get this about AI. AI will out compete some humans at some jobs, but protectionism is for losers. The important thing is that the overall pie grows and inequality stays somewhat in check, not by redistribution, but by design. There will be more to do than ever before. more to do than ever before. >> Can we pull up this video of Jensen? >> Yeah, let's do it. And I >> in the production chat for you. >> Yo, you have it? >> Yeah, we can play it. >> Great. I'm excited for Eric Seford's deep dive here. We'll get into that later. >> The souvenir. >> And reminder, we have the Isacator coming on in just seven minutes. Mike Isaac has been covering the Elon Musk versus trial. Is it like a 4 day work week with trials? >> It is. >> Are they living in the future? >> It is. Wait, wait, wait. So, can can can we pull up this screenshot because did you read Mike Isaac's full thread on uh on his experience covering the trial? Did you read the whole thing? Because he's been live tweeting it. And it's very funny because he will post. So, we got to zoom in here. This is a >> Did you turn this into >> I turned it into an infographic. So, this is a this is a minute-by-minute chronological log of op off-topic slashpersonal minor inconvenience moments because Mike Isaac will talk about, oh, Elon Musk just said this on the stage, oh, the lawyer fired back with this, the jury said this, the judge said that, right? But then in between that, he has been logging very very minor inconveniences that he's that he's uh experienced. So he talks about his his lunch, the roasted tomato and corn pizza. He says he forgot a pillow for his bird to sit on. >> He said >> corn be >> I don't know. Uh he said he bought >> that's a very Oakland thing >> at at at600745. This is transcribed from EXO. I think the times are times are UTC or something. Uh he brought a water bottle but forgot to fill it in the rush for a seat. Now he's increasingly thirsty during an intense moment of testimony. Uh someone's laptop suddenly blasted a loud YouTube video in the gallery. This is a garden hose nozzle. It said courtroom mishap. So he's going through it all. Uh it's very fun to to track his and we'll and we'll dig into his experience both in the court and actually with what's going on with the case. But let's play this Jensen clip. This sounds fun. Uh Jensen is insisting that jobs will be created in the future. Let's see it. What does he have to say? >> Um there's the things that the things that are said are very counterproductive and in fact hurtful. I on the one hand maybe maybe a scientist thinks that by warning people that AI is going to completely permeate and proliferate across radiology and therefore radiologists are going to get wiped out. Um on the one hand that might be considered warning and therefore helpful but in fact the counter would have been hurtful if we convinced everybody not to be radiologists and we now need radiologists. That actually is hurtful to society. Um it is hurtful if we convinced all the young college graduates to not be software engineers and it turns out United States need more software engineers than ever. That's hurtful. Um and so we have to be mindful of how we communicate uh the importance of this technology and what it's able to do um to advocate for policy and advocate for guard rails on the one hand. On the other hand, uh scaring people with things like saying nonsensical things which are not going to happen that this is an existential threat to humanity. There's 20% chance that is existential. That's ridiculous. Uh that it's going to wipe out uh 50% of of uh of uh new college grad jobs. Uh that it's going to completely destroy democracy. I mean, these kind of comments are not helpful. They're not based they're they're made by >> he's subweeting in real life. He's not vague posting. He's subweeting. Uh I I do think the 50% numbers are so funny because it's like 5050 is like the most neutral you can be about some prediction. It feels like I mean I get that it's not in that case it's like 50% of jobs but whenever you issue like a 50/50 proclamation it sort of tells you nothing like like we were looking at like the prediction markets on the trial and we were like oh it's 50/50. Okay so that actually doesn't give me any information about what's going to happen in the future. And it's very easy to make a prediction that's like, oh, I predict this will happen 50/50. And then if it doesn't happen, you can be like, well, yeah, 50% chance it wasn't going to happen. Like, I had it really high that it wasn't going to happen. And then you can also say, you know, I predicted it. Um, >> yeah, it's so it is it is truly universal when we talk to these companies that are building a AI products or selling a AI products. >> Um, it seems like the ambition level in every single industry is just going up. Even even Gabe from Rogo was saying, "Yeah, there's an opportunity to cut costs or there's an opportunity to get aggressive and like take market share." Yep. >> And and he said like a lot of firms are saying like, "Let's just do more work. Let's grow let's grow our revenue. Let's take on more clients, right?" >> And so it is um it's harder and harder to to doom about the job market. >> Yeah. Do you need to doom about the task market >> if you're It's over for tasks are getting automated. No, it's serious. Like there are tasks that like the reading of the X-ray or whatever it was the the radiologist scan. What What do they actually read? Is that an X-ray that they're looking for tumors in? You know what I'm talking about, right? The famous Hinton. >> Yeah. I don't know if it's technically an X-ray. >> It's not. Right. It's a CAT scan. >> It's some scan where you can look. >> Yeah. They do a scan. And of course, image generation and image models are very good at detecting cancers. But that is just one of several tasks, many tasks that a radiologist does throughout the day. And so radiologists are currently making more money than ever. And they are in more demand than ever. Uh and I was telling you before the show about uh truck drivers. Um they don't just drive the truck. Uh there was a survey that said 70% of them carry weapons because they are effectively they are security guards for the truck and as well as probably a bunch of other things that you don't think about light repairs on the truck. Uh you know stopping for different things, rearranging things in the back, making sure the load is like balanced and what driving. you're driving with kids in the car and you drive by a big truck on a road trip. You can go like this and then >> that's another thing that they that they could never a computer could never look out the windows seeing some kids in the car and and honk. >> But well, yeah, I mean we'll we'll see. Anyway, uh we have Mike Isaac in the waiting room. Let's bring him into the TV Ultra Dome. >> He's at the New York Times. Mike, how you doing? >> Yo, what's up? >> Good to see you. >> Great to see you. >> So, >> wait. So, what's up? Yeah. So, so 4 day work week. >> Are they living in the future? >> Yeah. Is this Universal Basic vacation days? >> It's court is incredible in that I got to sleep in till like 9:00 a.m. today, which is which was great. But I made up for it because like literally every day this week I've gotten up at 5:00 in the morning to get my cold ass down to the Oakland courthouse and stand outside for two hours. So, I don't know. But it's fun. It's >> How does it How does it work? Who gets priority? Is it first come, first serve? Like if some random person if some random person shows up before you, >> they can just get it and then you're just out >> or or or do you get to like show some sort of like press like how does it work? >> Yeah. I wish I was cool enough to like cut Well, here's the thing. >> You should get an artist pass. >> VIP pass. >> No, not VIP. Artist pass is a level above. >> Okay. Artist pass. I so there are 20 uh reserve seats in the front row for press but the issue is uh only one person per outlet gets it and we are doing like live blogging for like the big moments like opening statements and for Elon and so myself and my colleague Cade came on the first the whole first week and so so we've had a trade-off he's gotten the like press skip the line thing and I've been with Um the other folks in the 30 unreserved seats in the back and >> that are watching YouTube videos. >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. Or literally >> or stripe sessions. >> Literally one dude fell asleep. I was actually impressed. >> Fell asleep. >> Yeah. >> Uh it seemed pretty entertaining. You didn't seem like you were falling asleep. I was keeping up on the through the live blog. >> Be reading my nightmarish Twitter, too. I It's been fun, honestly. Have you guys ever done like court case things or Have you ever been sued or been in court? >> Never been in court. >> I I I went to uh mock court in high school where everyone picks a role. I think I was weared in court. >> Literally laring in high school, >> but other than that, I never >> I the whole this whole time it seems it seems insane >> like with with the with the recent NASA the moon mission. I was like, "This should be a live stream plus a pay-per-view for the key moments >> for this trial." It's like, "We have huge budget deficits and we have these incredible media products. Why are we not doing pay-per-views?" Right? >> Um, >> but uh that's the the funny thing. Oh, I was just going to say that's the funny thing about like federal courthouse stuff. Like there's a lot of different rules around filming and electronics. I covered some cases in DC and I can't even bring a laptop or phone in those courouses. So, like this is actually a very permissive judge just because she believes in like press access and stuff and we've had there's way more access than you would normally get in federal court cases. >> Okay. So, you you've been to these court cases before, but if I follow your Twitter, it feels like you're making a bunch of rookie mistakes. You you you you only had egg bites at 5:30 a.m. Your bite energy is wearing off. You forgot your butt pillow. You forgot to fill your water bottle. Like, is this amateur hour? or are you professional? What's going on? >> I think I think that you you guys might know me well enough that that is kind of how I operate most of my life. Like kind of chaotic, but it is >> focus on the important stuff. >> That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I can file. I may be like bleeding and hungry like limping across the finish line, but we're getting I'm tweeting for you. Uh what what is your what what is your what are some like high-profile cases that that stand out that you've covered in the past? >> So I got to do let's see my first one was insanely boring but important. The Apple versus Samsung thing back in the day and like them suing for Samsung copying like literally everything they do. Um, I did uh Dallas actually Zuckerberg's like I think maybe one of his first testimonies on the stand when Zenamax was suing Meta for the Oculus acquisition. Remember that? >> Yeah. >> Palmer. >> That was in Dallas. That was super fun. Uh that I almost got kicked out of the courtroom for tweeting. >> Whoa. >> Um and then I did uh the DC FTC Meta one and I almost got kicked out of the courtroom again. Actually, I did get kicked out of the courtroom for wearing the Meta Ray-B bands. These are not it. >> But I wore the Meta Ray and then they started put I was I was [ __ ] super stupid for doing it. But then they started putting signs up saying do not wear these glasses in >> court. But you weren't you you were just using them as glasses or you were being sneaky and you were recording? >> No, I was like, "Look, I can't record. I won't record." I was trying to play by the rules and like they were they are my prescription glasses. Yeah, but the baiff >> the baiff was like, >> "It's too much. It's too high risk for them >> because you could have like turned off the the light or whatever, something like that. >> Uh, talk about the the the fans. Are there really Elon Musk fans in the courtroom? Like what what motivates someone to go and watch that live? Is this their UFC front row ticket? Like why are they there? >> Uh, so you guys would have fun. Like it actually is a lot of court cases are boring to people who don't care about this stuff, right? like you and I may be super into like the FTC trial was super fun for me because it's like oh my god Mark Zuckerberg emailing Cheryl Samberg and talking about path like this is incredible and like the average person has no idea what we're talking about but this is like a a circus. There are people who genuinely love Elon or are genuinely worried about the end of the world happening. >> Um and I think it's a really good thing that there's public access to these courts. Like I think like the average person can come in and show up and that's what I think after the the buzz of Twitter and like people seeing that this is a event we got a much longer lines and like folks who are local like just like I know a PM in tech from Meta that came. I know like a guy from Box made it in uh just if you get a seat >> if you get there early enough then you can get a seat and you can just hang out. It's like and I think it's really great. I think it's great that people are Yeah. are there for it, you know? Shouldn't just be me. >> Yeah. >> What about the What about the jury? Does the jury seem excited and and honored to have the opportunity to be to be a part of of a case like this or are they are they nodding off? It be so funny to be like so out of just like off the internet like you can't be super bad. You're probably not a ps like Sam. This guy Sam and Greg and this guy who makes cars and I don't even know what they're talking. Bunch a whole bunch of mumbo jumbo. Like there's got to be one person on the jury that was just so not >> tapped in that that they're just confused. >> Yeah. >> I think jury selection was super interesting for that. I can't say it's actually interesting. I can't say too much about the jury right now because like there's all these rules about >> Oh, sure. like some random person could go up to them if you identify them or try to alter it. >> Totally. But I will say like during jury selection on Monday, it is an incredible slice of life and you get like how familiar or unfamiliar people are with the tech industry despite being here, you know, like some folks are like, I have no talk. I no idea what you're talking about. I don't know what >> AI is. I don't know what AGI stands for. So it really it really play and voadier and jury selection is so important for cases like this just it makes the dynamic of the facts don't necessarily always matter but the vibe can really matter which I think is a benefit for Elon honestly. >> Yeah. Were they were they trying to weed out They're trying to weed out people that are a little bit too excited about the case, right? You want the people that are like in order to have But but then talk I I didn't understand why why is the jury just like giving like an advisory decision? What is the history of like why do you why do you have a jury when the judge is ultimately going to make the final call? It it feels like just kind of putting on like a show cuz like theoretically the judge could just >> sit through a bunch of depositions and make a call. >> Sure. No, I I think um so I do think they want more often than not want a jury of these CEOs and companies peers to be the deciding factor in what they feel like is good for a civil claim. Like that I think is fairly standard. But to your point, um, the judge can throw out their verdict, which is like is and judges I don't think tend to want to do that because like they want to have reliance on this is the public, the public should have a say in what goes or whatever. But uh the judge can do that. I will say also she is responsible for uh if they are if Elon or sorry if OpenAI is found liable judge decides on remedies damages and things like that. So she still has an active role in that regard and in steering the case but I really do think that uh full courts often prefer or often appreciate a peer a jury of your peers making some of these decisions. So, I don't think it's going to be like completely disregarded is what I would say. >> Yeah. >> Uh, how has Judge Rogers done so far in your view? Just reading reading the live blog, she seemingly has like zingers and like pretty pretty like good like oneliners. The time I'm just like kind of imagining what it's like in there because obviously I'm just reading text, but she's had like seemingly like some pretty good comedic timing. >> Yeah. >> Oh my god, she's so funny. She's like real. Like, >> as you might imagine, there's like a number of different types of judges and how they handle their court or whatever. And she just takes no BS from anyone, including the lawyers. And like when they try to like tap dance or break the rules or whatever, she's like, "No, shut up." Or like get back on track. Or no, no, no. Actually, the best part or the most insane part. So, one woman in the overflow room who was just a uh not just, it was a civilian going to attend and watch it, >> started recording, which is again against the rules if not the law in a federal courthouse. >> So, the judge brings her in and in front of a room of like a hundred people just like dresses her down, yells at her saying, "Did did you not see any of these signs? What are you doing? I will kick you out. I will. It was like I I would have like peed my pants and started crying if she had done that to me. It was deeply deeply intense. >> It's it's teacher, you know, uh berating a student. >> Yeah. Class is in session. >> Class is in session here. Um >> it was brutal. >> Uh how how do how have you been processing Elon's positioning? It feels like the two uh the two stories that I've heard him sort of telling are one about his commitment to technology, humanity uh saving the world through you know Tesla and the electrification of the internal combustion engine and SpaceX making you know humanity multilanetary and then and that's like a very highlevel uh you know high concept uh pitch and then He also sort of brings it down and starts beating this drum on like you can't steal a charity. You can't steal a charity. Uh is that the correct framing that he's trying to go like high and low there? How much have he's been beating each of these drums and how useful is that? >> Totally. So I I totally agree that's the framing and I think this really goes to the point of a lot of these trials are pageantry is the wrong word but let's say theater in that you are this is a jury trial and it's a different thing than just convincing a judge who I would say is much more attuned to the facts and merit of the case and like hammering in on the evidence and like uh something that may be boring to you or me or whatever or the jury is going to be more important to a judge. Elon, I think from day one, has leaned into the persona of Elon and just from him being on the stand and saying, "I care about humanity. I mean, he he says he does whatever he does or doesn't, but like just leaning into this like I'm a worldchanging entrepreneur and this stuff is existential and I'm the one who has cared about it and like that may work on a jury, you know, like there are people who still love him and you know, OpenAI is really hammering the facts of what they feel are are their side of the case and saying Elon has known about uh Elon has never been in the dark. He quit in a huff. he uh he's made it very clear he hasn't been there. He's trying to sue now or he's trying to file this claim now because he's catching up because he's behind as an XAI competitor. But like again, this is all stuff that maybe it doesn't play. Like this is why jury trials are so risky for companies a lot of the time. You know, it's really >> it's fun for me. It's probably not fun for for everyone in there, but it's fun to see it play out if that makes sense. >> How did the distillation uh comments come up? That was like that was the news of the day yesterday. You guys obviously returned. >> You broke you you you broke it, right? >> I think I did. Yeah. I think it was one of those things where I was like, "Holy [ __ ] this is news." And I think like Boltz like started figuring it out, but I was like got to put it on Twitter. And uh uh so the point uh so Bill Sabat is lead counsel for OpenAI. He was sort of talking about the the point was made in the context of they want to hammer home Elon is creating a competitive product and also he keeps stressing that this is doom worldending technology but at the same time he's he's he's ripping off the toss and using the technology to improve his own technology in an explicitly for-profit company. Yeah. >> And so the the point is like hammering him as a hypocrite. And I think look like I think Elon has history in his businesses. It would not be controversial to say to to like say one thing and do the other. And I think he sees it as like rules of engagement. That's the game in the you know holds capitalism land. But like that is how it came up and that they didn't go super deep into it. But they wanted to make the point he's using open eyes tech. He's breaking the toss and he's partly distilling it. And I want to say also that Elon went out of his way to say everyone kind of does this. It's like an open secret in the industry, which I think is like also kind of true, but that doesn't make it there's like it's it's fraught, I guess, is what I would say. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a there's obviously a continuum there, which is why he tried to hammer that it was like partly I imagine most car companies have taken a rival car for a spin. Have they taken the car apart? you know, there's a line there and there are laws, but that's a separate issue, of course. >> Has um has anything come up with a jury around prediction markets? Because I was thinking we've now seen insider trading across every possible prediction market, right? From uh you know, I'm sure from you know, even even the Maduro thing was was was interesting because a lot of people were like, "Oh, he's just betting on himself." But then I saw that I was like, >> hey, that's sending a signal to the entire world that an attack could be happening which puts your entire team at risk, right? So like very very clearly like US military personnel should not be able to trade against >> our own military's actions ever, right? And that they need to come down really hard on that. >> Are you just trading on this? Are you just trading on this crazy? Are you are you going to retire off this? But the reason the reason that the jury thing is is is bad is it creates a potentially an incentive for the jury to basically work together and say like, "Hey, like we all have to be here for like a month." >> Like we could at least make some money on it and then you only need to get like four You only need to get like four or five of these people. >> The chat is saying monetize jury duty. >> Oh my god. No, but but but like it seems like very important that this does not happen, right? Because because there's very like they they tried to select a jury that just doesn't care about the AI race. They don't care about this or that. >> And and but if they are self-interested in some capacity, they could be like, well, my my decision is not is not even really legally binding. It's just advisory. Like I may as well, you know, I don't know. Right. Uh, no. I I think that's a great point and like something that I imagine like court systems aren't even prepared for fully yet because like >> well there hasn't been a big there hasn't been a big trial like there's been I'm sure some like epic Apple stuff that was slightly big but but nothing where nothing anything at this scale with this much even just this much volume already from people that are generally interested in >> in in the story. >> Yeah. >> The outcome. And like I think the other thing you should know is like they're not sequestered. Like they show up kind of like before >> like anyone else >> right before they Yeah. Like they literally like we see them walking in and that the marshals there's like a ton of like US marshals there. They're like is anyone a juror in this line? The juror gets to go in. So like and at the end of every day the judge is like goes back over the rules saying do not discuss this case with anyone. Do not watch it on TV. Do not look at it on your phone. which is like a verbal command. >> Yeah. Don't go on your phone. >> Just don't. >> Exactly. >> Hey, don't use the most addictive thing that has ever been created in human history. Don't use a thing that you use for 6 hours a day >> that you probably turn your lights on and adjust your thermostat. >> Totally. I mean, it's that's a it's something I had not thought of, Jordy, but it's a really good >> like when does that come up at some point, you know, like that's very worried. Not just, but just ever. >> Yeah, it seem it seems like something that um that that uh the court should be paying attention to heading into a a a decision from from the jury. Yeah. >> Uh how much is the history between uh Opening Eyes Council Bill uh who represented he represented Twitter when Elon was trying to get out of the the the the Twitter buyout. Uh, and ultimately it feels like the X/ Twitter acquisition has worked out pretty well for Elon. He's made a number a number of plays. So, hard to hard to imagine him like, you know, deeply regretting buying it. Even though at the time he was happy to get out until Bill said, "No, we're we're doing this." >> I you know what's funny? Um he is I I can't underscore enough how different the tenor change. I mean, look, it's like it's opposing council, so it's always going to be different. But Elon went from like I am a entrepreneur sort of like rosy explaining to you what I think the future should look like and like very concerned for the future of the human race to like openly antagonistic to Savit's questioning and like and the the thing that I'm very curious how this plays with the jury is like Elon was very he's like I'm a literal guy. like the questions you're asking me are like too complicated or like they're not yes or no questions which is like fair like as a grievance but also the thing he either doesn't understand or doesn't care about understanding is that that's just lawyers like that's the whole point of a cross-examination is to ask these questions as as reductively as possible to to get a type of answer they're looking for and his job or his uh you know pre-trial sort of discussions with his own lawyers is to know how to navigate those essentially while also telling the the truth. So I don't know they just don't like each other or at least Elon doesn't like Savit and you can very it's very clear that he's just like mad at that. And whenever Elon gets sassy I would hear like clearly people who are fans of of Musk like laughing behind me are being like yeah you got him like it's just it's very it's very funny. It's like kind of a It's different than the usual vibe is what I'd say. >> That's very interesting. >> Out outlook. What's going on Monday? What's the outlook? >> It feels like this week was the Elon side for the most part. Are we going to flip to uh Sam and Greg and and some other OpenAI folks or is there a an intermediate step? Like do do you have a clear view of what the next couple weeks look like? Yeah. So, it's a little rough because we we have witness lists in full that they presented and are in evidence, but they you don't really learn who's coming until like very soon that week. It's actually a giant pain in the ass for me and for reporters who are trying to schedule. But like, so we Jared Burchaw, who's like Mus Family office guy, just finished testifying. Uh we're going to get uh this guy Steuart Russell us. >> No, sorry. That was yesterday. That was yesterday. And And you said Birshaw was very dry. Like was that intentional? That feels like that does not work in favor of like swinging a jury. Was that more for the judge? Like what was the goal of that uh of that uh testimony? I think it was to really just sort of show how Musk was trying to set up this like like structure things as a non nonprofit and like hammer home like he's always wanted it to be a nonprofit and he's not sort of like so it was it was uh I believe it was Musk's witness who OpenAI then cross-examined and OpenAI used the occasion to show an email that had like a proposed equity structure for Musk. And so like they both kind of used him differently, but I think like Bertall is like a >> essentially an accountant books guy like behind the scenes. So I think it was like here's a peak behind the curtain. Here's how they were dealing with the finances. Here's how >> uh Musk was like this is only a charity. And then >> uh Opening Eyes lawyers were like actually check this [ __ ] out. So I but I think like I don't I honestly don't know. They also struck some of his testimony because this is a little complicated but if you remember last year Open AI or um Musk made a bid with Ari Emanuel and some other companies >> buy the whole company >> and that uh open the door or that sort of um complicates uh things for M's side because there might be uh some of those discussions around that bid admitted into evidence and that may not be good for Musk. because if there's like weird compromising emails in there. So like it's gotten complicated. But next week we're getting >> Stuart Russell, safety researcher. We got Greg Brockman, >> maybe Sam Alman, maybe not. It's four days a week in court only. So we may not have time, but I got to be ready. I'll be there most of the time, but I'll be there for Sam for sure. And then >> I don't know. >> All right, rewinding a second. Did Did they bid Did they bid on the PVC like the the forprofit arm? >> Yeah, that was >> it was the Yeah. and they they wanted to just sort of I I don't actually know what their plans were afterwards, but like it was like trying to take over the asset those assets basically and then uh you know morph it into what they I mean and they knew that it wasn't going to get accepted as a bid basically but it was like uh and then Birchall sorry Birchall in court was saying this was us trying to sort of establish a pricing uh mechanism to like value the actual entity itself and that was going to help them somehow. I actually am not quite sure how that would help them somehow, but uh someone in the chat is probably smarter than me. I'm not. But like it was them trying to sort of take that over. And I think OpenAI said publicly at the time, this is like a stalling tactic. They're trying to like slow us down while also using this in court in this concurrent lawsuit later basically. So, it's all like really messy and I think even Musk's side took a risk there if those emails get into discovery, but it's unclear to me if that's going to happen. If we if they are, then we may see them next week. >> Do you >> why would why would that that kind of discovery process around that bid be coming up now when everyone involved was well aware that it had happened quite a long time ago. So I think because of a line of questioning with Birchaw yesterday about the bid that like if that happens on the stand and again like a lawyer gut checked me here because I'm a stupid tech reporter but if that happens on the stand then it gives an entry point for open eyes lawyers to be like okay well we need to you know now admit basically the judge said to must side you open this line of questioning now it's fair game to go into this And then you can start calling new evidence in around that like to open up discovery. It's like really like strategy and like you have to be careful in your strategy when you're asking certain questions in court. I've been learning a lot about it. So maybe it's a strategic misstep by Tobarov Elon's lawyer, but it's not quite clear yet. >> Do you have a idea of the purpose of the AI safety researchers testifying what the goal is there? or like does that align with one particular side? Like if there's more nonprofits like you still probably wind up with anthropic, deep mind, XAI, like it like having one like you know more focused nonprofit going on for a long time doesn't necessarily lead me to like oh then we wouldn't be in an AI race like it's not a clear solve for me but I imagine that that so one side is trying to position this as important but do you have any predictions for what that goal is? >> Totally. So this is must witness and your point is well made which is like okay if even if your kneecap won like good luck on literally everyone else and like there's been a lot of time spent Elon talking smack about Larry Page and how he like doesn't trust him anymore. That's actually been really fun to hear. >> Um but uh the the point I believe is this is actually a point of contention. So the judge does not the judge prohibited like going too far into like dumerism into the world stuff and she's like look that's kind of a sideshow distraction like extinction humanity stuff is not the point of this case but >> must side called this guy because they want someone and this my my understanding is that Stuart is like very aligned with the idea that AI is super dangerous and going to harm us all. And so if you get this guy in there make that point. How does that not like if this guy's going to come on and say that AI like the most insane like doomer point of view which I think is >> everyone's going to have their own opinion around this debate. it's worth completely worthy of of having and and talking about. Uh but but how does Elon square that with like I'm trying to build the biggest cluster possible and you know distill on the rest of the industry's model and you know create tens of of gigawatts of space compute and like how how does that how >> does that like can't this kind of witness potentially backfire in some capacity? No, I mean you're you're you're exactly right in that squaring that circle is pretty hard and like exactly what um I should be I I I should be trusted with the you know all powerful >> we're going to be in the Terminator situ situation no matter what. So you want me in charge of the Terminators, not some other guy, not some nonprofit, not some well shareholders. He is he is he's basically making he's he's he's pivoting Tesla production to uh >> Terminators. >> The Terminators basically >> Optimus. >> Yeah. >> Great. No, I I and like can I just make one last point is that I think he he misunderstood the Terminator because like >> we still survive and we fight back in that world. Do you remember this? >> I've been saying this. People haven't seen the movie. Jordy actually hasn't seen the Terminator, but in all of these >> Are you kidding me, dude? in in in all of these movies like it completely leaves out that there is a problem and then humanity overcomes it. And so it's like if there is a Terminator scenario like I just want to know that you're on my side as the resistance fighting back and like whether the Terminator comes from >> you are John Connor >> hopefully. I mean I I would yeah it's I don't know. I don't want to get into the the the full Udicowski thing, but like like it is reasonable to be to to to to sort of steal man that like if it is bad right now it's not. It sucks. >> Says I have to watch Terminator tonight. >> You got to watch Terminator. >> Okay. So, literally I just saw this on Twitter. Terminator 2 is coming back into IMAX pretty soon. Like you can go see it in the theater. So you have to go see it, Jordy. Like it's it's required viewing. >> Let's go together. >> Yeah. >> I'm down. I'm down. Do you do you have any I would say that so far the trial is less I mean it's hard for the trial to go very viral because there's no audio video and it's just like live blogging >> and you can imagine you can imagine some of these scenes like just the stuff that you're typing I'm like if that was on video >> that gets like 50 million views in like >> you know in a few hours on on on X you know across a bunch of these different aggregator accounts. Um, but part is is maybe part of the like >> my my feeling is like it's just so it's just so like I feel like the entire tech industry is like it's just kind of depressing to see to see these groups like fighting in this way when we have so much bigger problem like we have so many bigger problems as an industry right the big problem being like public perception of AI >> is like already so bad like people you know don't don't like you know >> I I saw some protest signs that were like no matter who wins we all lose or something like that like there's some very negative stuff and >> I mean that so I totally agree and I do think actually um everyone not everyone but like many in the AI industry have started realizing oh we have like not everyone loves us like this is a perception problem in a lot of way which like to me is funny because like I I not that I'm smart but I feel like I've known that for a little while and but it's the the the issue is the the industry is coming around to that or at least certain folks are and know that they want to change that perception. But this case has been >> in the system for like years now and sort of like actually happening at a time where they wouldn't want it to necessarily happen if they're trying to change that. So the timing just sucks honestly for for folks who don't like that if that makes sense. >> Yeah. There's so many different like little tidbits and I don't know if they're going to be exact quotes but you can just imagine plenty of things that are going to happen on the stand winding up on a Bernie Sanders poster and being like stop it Paul's AI right because like you know it's always like give the tech people enough rope to hang themselves and like there's a lot of rope going out the next couple weeks. >> Oh my gosh. It's totally you got to one of y'all both of y'all should just show up to the courtroom at some point and like experience it because I mean you have an actual day job but it's like literally >> it's really interesting and like an experience. >> So you you can't record video, you can't record audio, but is there a world where you have like five of your own stenographers there taking a perfect transcript? Would that be possible with enough resources? >> And then we could do a table reading on the show. >> That's what I'm thinking is that is that you could use voice cloning. I don't know if you noticed this. Uh Tyler, what was it? Grock launched voice cloning today or something which is Why is that controversial again? >> Well, for like I mean we've had this technology for like 5 years and then no one released it because like you don't want people to make deep fakes of other people's voices. >> Okay. Yeah. Because it's like textbook like I could >> I call you I call you John. I need I need I need like I need 500 bucks. Can you give me your credit card for a second? >> So obviously there's a bunch of risky uses of that. The good use is the comedic table read in the voice of Sam Bman in the voice of Greg Brockman in the voice of Elon Musk that we can all enjoy. I was thinking more of like doing like a >> end of the day. There's like we do a play here where we have all of a bunch of different full makeup, full costume. >> So, you know, there are transcription services and even like >> you could do you could be Mike Isaac by like >> Oh, yeah. We need someone playing you for sure. >> No, it's like it's it's a cameo. He's playing >> Oh, he's playing himself. Okay. Uh, >> I think you got to go full Nathan. >> And the whole the whole time just crashing out like I forgot my lunch. I forgot to fill up my water. >> I had a banana. >> I had a banana. >> Oh my god. Can I just say there is an attorney there that looks exactly like Nathan Fielder that I'm like almost like this Nathan looks like Nathan. I every time I see him I'm like is this like a bit like I'm am I going to be on TV in some way? It's very intense. You got to ask him next year. >> I mean, Elon Mus says the funniest outcome's the most likely and that might be >> seriously like what is the what is the funniest outcome? The funniest outcome is like Elon wins and the penalty is like is like 50 bucks or something like that. It's like it's like Elon like you win here's here's $150. Enjoy it. >> Just the most like inconsequential fine for the AI industry which is flush with cash at all times. >> Well, I find that like fine. Like there's so many anytime a company in tech gets that gets fined or not every time, but often it's like >> sometimes it's a fine for ants. >> Yeah. Like they they they did something that was bad. They generated a hundred million of revenue and the fine is like $1.5 million. It's like did that >> I think the current Meta YouTube lawsuit was like maybe a $10 million settlement. Of course, there was like knock on of potential for >> class. That was for one That was for one individual. >> That was one individual. But still, it was like you have this like landmark case, this big build, and then you're like, "Oh, how how how damaging is it going to be? It's going to be like five minutes of revenue." >> But the stock actually in meta earnings as as far I mean there was a lot of [ __ ] that took the stock down, but like I think one of them was them saying like this might have a material impact on like these cases like may have a material impact in the future if it opens the door. So like, yeah, I agree. Like it's always remedies are always like it can be existential from a financial point of view, but also just from a guess what this is about to become your whole [ __ ] life for the next 10 years or whatever, if that makes sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. We talked to a a law professor who uh said like the question is does social media exist in the future? Like this is an existential moment. I'm not sure that we're quite there, but uh it is it is there is definitely a risk and you need to consider that if you're an investor. >> Totally. Anyway, Charlie, >> uh, what's the game plan for next week? What's going in? Are you doing trail mix? Are you doing protein bars? I want you fueled up, ready to go. >> Camelback came back. >> You You should be able to do like a sponsored Camel Back, you know? >> Camel. >> Did you ever watch Jury Dude, the show Jury Dude? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. I I want to be the guy with like the chair pants and the like the water thing attached to my back and like >> I need I'm gota This is blogging. This is back in my blogging all things digital blog days man. This is this is it. So I will more prepared this weekend. Go you should go sit in a chair for eight hours straight. >> Are you going to do all four days? Are you doing all four days? >> I think we're going to switch off a little more. I I apologize. says I will not be my like disastrous falling apart self every day of the week just maybe two days of the week. So uh Kade you should follow Kade Mets my other colleague who's there. >> Um although he he is much more put together and does not tweet like a person off their meds like I do. So >> uh it'll be a different vibe each day but I I will be there next week. Yeah. >> Last question. Is this book material? Is it does it rise to that quality this drama? I do like someone's got to write >> I would write a book on your coverage of this trial. >> Yes, that's what I want to read this the my >> and then I would do a podcast about it. I would do a podcast about it and then someone would make a book about the podcast about the book >> covering we'll create a content or boros here. Keep it going someday. I don't know. We'll see. >> Anyway, thank you so much for great to catch up. Good to see you. Thanks for the update. We'll talk to you soon. Have a good one. >> Thanks, guys. I'll see you soon. >> Goodbye. Uh, we're running late, but we got Kyle Harrison in the waiting room. Let's bring him in to the CVPN Ultra Dome. He wrote a book about the andoral thesis, 300 pages of defense, tech, lore, history, knowledge. You know what's more valuable than any of these cars up here in the Hollywood Hills? Knowledge. And you wrote a book. Tell us about it. What was the process? What was the thesis of the book? The Anderal thesis. >> It was an incredible experience. I would say I think the thing that I came to appreciate the most was everybody talks about Anderole like it's just any other company. Um all these high growth companies that are are defined by an awesome team chasing a big idea market turns out to be bigger than you possibly expect. You know Ben Horowitz has to tell data bricks that they're underelling themselves at 10 billion. It's 100 billion. It's 200 billion. >> Yep. >> Like those stories are very common. >> Yep. The Anderal story is so underappreciated because it is counterpositioned to there's like over almost hundred years of military, geopolitical, industrial history that really define uh the company that people just they just they don't know like they think about oh this is an interesting strategic choice and it's like no this is actually because of things decisions that people made in the 50s and 60s that we literally have to do things this way. That was the biggest takeaway. Yeah, I feel like uh Sham Sankar at Palunteer with the first breakfast has done a good job shining a light on the last supper. So many people in tech are familiar with that sort of key moment of industry consolidation that led us to this moment. Uh were there any anecdotes or historical stories that you discovered that were more under the radar, more like less discussed as like you know the the the founding moments of this whole journey? The biggest appreciation that I got was for this sort of like um dual pairing of people pushing forward a specific project. So in the kill chain which is Chris Bros who now is the kind of co-president and chief strategy officer at anal but at the time was coming off the armed services committee he wrote this book the killchain he talks about this idea of like military mavericks and I kind of combined this with this kind of founder founder mode energy that people bring and so you have this like founder plus military maverick pairing where you have folks like the the team um so Bernard Shrivever I think is the name of the guy who basically led the team inventing ICBMs. He absolutely needed Eisenhower as his kind of military maverick to like pair that effort. There's countless stories of this, the modernization of the Navy. There's all these different things that were like that onetwo punch was kind of require once you get away from like, you know, at one point the DoD was 36% of global R&D. They had a pretty good handle on the cutting edge. Once you the further away you get from that, the more you need founder mode people digging in to figure out the solution. And and it's heartbreaking because you see these like countless examples of like profits of urgency throughout time where like once we lost that that sort of like desire for founders to come in and solve problems. Um you have all these people who are like throughout the 80s and 90s and early 2000s they were releasing reports and and writing white papers and talking about how hey this is going to be a problem. Warfare is changing. China's going to school on how we do conflict and that's problematic. and none of them had sort of founders to be able to come solve problems because no one was willing to pay attention to the actual problems and and so we lost that pairing. Uh there's reports of Ander raising a new round $60 billion potentially uh is this book a financial thesis? Is this financial advice? Is this something that uh investors, potential investors, maybe future investors? >> Yeah, there's four chapters dedicated to price targets. >> Price targets, multiples, cash entertainment purposes only. Right across the right across the No, this is this does not constitute financial advice. Entertainment purposes only. >> Uh you know what's crazy is I think if I remember correctly in secondary markets uh if if there is any secondary volume that that Andrew's founders haven't already gone to war on. >> I heard somebody say uh that it was like 100 billion indication like even just tracking like what people are willing to pay because of Matt Grim's war. There may be no no supply for the demand but the demand is priced at 100 billion. So it's not >> you know whether where the new round ends up whatever the appetite continues >> sequel sequel the Anderal financial thesis. Let's go. >> That's right. This is investment advice. Uh, Andrew's been very very inquisitive >> and it feels like the some of the most like meaningful innovation and like founder mode behavior in the last 20 years has come out of like Ukraine and what what they've been doing to basically uh figure out how to like innovate and create these like R&D loops around drone warfare. like do any any I I don't know if you can make predictions, but like does Ander end up buying any of these companies? Is that is that have you have you uncovered anything on that front? Is that even is that even a possibility? Um it just feels like they've done some very impressive work to uh protect their their country and um a lot of it seems relatively aligned to Andrew's own efforts. >> Yeah. So there's a couple of pieces of the puzzle. So first like in terms of how inquisitive Anderl has already been. Um you know our good friend Py McCormack has described it well. I think that calling it an an API into the DoD. um where Andreal is effectively enables this like plug-in mechanism of somebody can go very deep into a very specific capability in a way that like like um companies like the the company that made dive like it'd be very difficult for them to sort of become a standalone large company >> but by being acquired by Anderol immediately they're able to plug in and get a$und00 million contract with the Australian Navy and and stuff like that. So I think like the acquisition muscle plugs in a lot of this stuff pretty capably. The second piece of that puzzle is I think that a lot of times we do a disservice like the um venture capital industrial complex does a disservice by focusing everybody on this sort of like neoprime northstar of everybody needs to be the 10 20 50 hundred billion dollar outcome. I think that there are a lot of opportunities for companies to be very very good at a very specific thing capability and then to plug into some of these these systems whether it's through partnership or through acquisition. And what's funny, probably the most frustrating part about the book is we wrote it over the course of of two years. In part because we, you know, it's it's difficult to sit down. We all have day jobs and stuff, but in part too because the world is constantly changing, right? When we started when we originally sat down thinking about what this would look like um you know, none of the things that happened in um in Israel, like Ukraine was sort of just continuing to evolve, Venezuela happens, all these different conflicts happen over over time. But then on top of that, Anderl as a company continues to ship. And so even six months ago, I would have said, you know, what is the kind of like signal? And what's interesting is you look at some of their product launches. Some of these requisition get some through partnership, but I don't know if you guys have seen their um like anime style product launch videos, right? >> So I don't know if everybody has noticed this, but um the last two videos had teasers of their future products. M >> so I think it was the video that where they talked about Fury and then it was maybe Fury or the Barracuda um and then at the end of the video it kind of went under the water and you started to see these assets moving but then it cuts away and you don't know what it is. Couple months later they al they announce Copperhead which is their like torpedo product and that paired with dive and stuff and then they have a video about that and at the end it pans above the water and you start to see this thing kind of come out of the corner of the shot and it cuts away and then just whatever it was last week or so Andrew announced a partnership with Hyundai about building autonomous surface vessels right so it's like kind of going into all these different surface areas um I think that that is indicative of like where the signal is is that whether it's through partnership Whether it's through acquisition, a lot of the stuff that's happening in Ukraine, what you're what you're kind of exposing is that there is significant opportunity for likeworked assets and Anderil is absolutely has this mindset on becoming the the sort of worked everything the military military internet of things is what Chris Bros calls it. >> Where can people find the book? >> Amazon.com. Our own Jeff Bezos is hosting it for us. We're not in the book printing business. So audio book version of >> Oh, they print. They have a print on demand. >> It's sick. It's great. It's You put in the thing. It takes a lot of time. >> You thinking what I'm thinking, John? >> What you're thinking? >> It's pretty good. I'm telling you, >> it's time to It's time to It's time to ship books. >> You got to write a book about >> PBPN the novelization. >> We want to make We want to make ad supported business books. >> They're free, >> but they come with ramp ads. >> Yep. That's great. >> You get you get yourself a good design as easy as it could be. >> Last question from my side. Uh do you h have we reached peak early stage defense tech investing boom? Has it already passed? Is it are we still on the up? Like what what is your feeling at this point? >> I think that it is going to take um to to take the air out of the balloon is going to require some type of black swan. Hopefully hopefully micro swan micro black swan event. >> Um we don't want it to be too bad and too um >> wait you said to take the air out of the defense tech investing sales you would need a black swan event. So you're saying like we declare global peace. >> So I think it's going to take >> I think I think it's more about the capability. I think it's going to take like either there is a company that has been highly valued, highly sought after, kind of held up as one of the golden children of the the neo defense industrial wave that just something terrible. It's it's really bad. >> Like something very bad happened. And so then investors start to say, "Oh crap, wait, you're telling me not every company I invest in that does defense is going to be the next and I can't underwrite to every company. Maybe they're not 60 billion, but at least they'll be 20 billion." Like if that underwriting muscle goes away, you have a whole swath of carpet bagger VCs that suddenly get very panicked. Like something like that happens. >> Social there were a whole bunch of like like fifth wave social companies that didn't get the Instagram acquisition. They didn't get the WhatsApp acquisition. They raised a couple hundred million bucks and they just sort of burned it down and just went away and nothing really happened. And the VCs sort of woke up and they were like, "Okay, we got to be much more careful if we if we're investing in that category." So yeah. Yeah, because I think it's like I think the problem is like there are sort of like three variety of VCs are in and around like defense tech more broadly and it's like the people who invest and get it and they're actively built they understand the like moral implications of the types of technology they're investing in >> then there are still people who have said we will not invest in weapons we don't want to invest in defense whatever >> it's this middle ground tier that is problematic it's these people who they have no real philosophical weight um behind why They do what they do. They just see big number and pursue shiny object regardless of consequences. >> Line go up. Well, we hope that the line goes up on your book sales. Head over to amazon.com and buy the andal thesis by Kyle Harrison of Contrary. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Can't wait to see you soon. Have a great day. >> Congrats, dude. >> Goodbye. >> Thanks. >> Up next, we have David Marcus from Lightspark. He's the co-founder and CEO and he's launching Grid Global Accounts, a Bitcoin powered system enabling global USD accounts, cards, and crossber payouts. We talked a lot about crypto payments yesterday. We'll let you introduce the business yourself again. Welcome back to the show. Give us the update and what's going on your world. Great to see you. >> Thanks for having me back, guys. Um well look uh so the the big announcement we had this week so Lights Park has been around for about four years and you know in the last four years we've been building connectivity into payment systems all around the world like 65 countries now and the announcements that we added this week is great global accounts which is basically a global dollar account that any platform can issue and give to their stakeholders and that dollar account is what I think is the most powerful money account ever created because you can move money in real time to 65 countries payment systems like really at any time of the day or night. Uh you can move money on any chain with any stable coin you want. Uh you will have a Visa debit card that can allow you to spend that balance in 175 million merchants around the world that Visa supports and LightSpark is becoming a a principal member of the Visa network uh as part of that process. And it's got like this nice feature that enables those platform to actually be ready for the the complete change of interfaces as we move from websites and apps to conversational interfaces driven by agents. And so this idea that you can delegate safely money to agents so they can buy things or send money around the world for you um is really part of that whole grid global account platform that uh that we've announced and launched this week. >> Very very cool. So uh how how like when when did you guys start thinking about this opportunity obviously uh uh you know everyone's thinking about stable coins we have more regulatory clarity than ever. Was this always on the road map or did you guys start to get customers saying like hey we want support for stables and not just uh BTC related products. >> Yeah I mean look I think you know we so we've been working on stable coins for a long time. But the this concept of a global dollar account that can actually live everywhere is really novel and like the the there was no chance of us like actually doing that like even 12 months ago because like the the prerequisites the stars were were really not aligned, right? And right now with the Genius Act here in the US with Micah in Europe and similar legislation all over the world plus really really great embedded wallets like you know the the self-custodial wallets of like 2 years ago where you had a seed phrase that you could lose and you would never give that to a family member because like they would lose money uh almost invariably. uh all of that is gone, right? So now you have really great wallets that you can log in with Google, with Apple, with a pass key, with any login that's familiar and never lose your your keys or or your money. Uh and the last part of it is actually really stable coinbacked debit cards where the networks have really leaned in hard on and like now uh gives us an opportunity to really uh basically connect those dollar accounts to 175 million merchants around the world making that balance really useful for anyone receiving money on them. >> Yeah, very cool. Is the pivot from crypto miner to AI neocloud that's happening across the industry having any sort of effect on crypto markets or is that a because we we talk to companies all the time that are compute constrained there's this CPU crunch there's GPU crunch there's backlogs for power and data centers are delayed and that's what's going on in the AI world but Bitcoin as a network needs compute as well many other chains need compute and is compute scarcity bleeding over in any way to the upside or downside I I I just I don't know the effect at all. Does it matter or is there enough compute for uh crypto to do everything that they want to do as a community? Yeah, I mean look, I mean proof of work is definitely and so you know more more specifically for the Bitcoin network, proof of work is definitely using uh the the level of energy uh that uh at times will compete with like AI data centers. Um but but you know the hardware is like you know started GPU based but is very A6 driven now. Uh but on the energy side uh definitely uh definitely competes for the the same source of energy. But I look I am personally an acceleration maximalist and I actually think that we're actually going to unlock unbounded energy in the next like you know 101 15 years. So I I I actually don't think that we're going to have these types of issues of like actually competing resources with like massively like you know forward deployed amounts of capital on Bitcoin miners being replaced with you know GPUs. Um and and also like those data centers for for Bitcoin mining are are so specific like you know a lot of those miners are you know liquid cooled in a certain way and like operate on certain grids that you know they're able to actually like turn on and turn off the the mining capabilities really easily whereas like you know harder for >> you don't necessarily want to do that if you're like actively serving inference or even just like training you might not want to bring the bring the train down. Interesting. Where where are you expecting to see the first real hockey stick growth when it comes to agents leveraging stable coins? >> Like right now it feels like there's like it's a lot of like potential early experiments going on, >> but at least to me it's unclear where we'll see that, you know, really breakout use case. >> Well, I mean I I can share a little bit more about like, you know, my my thoughts and my experience. like you know the the first thing is I think that everyone competing to build like an agent to agent protocol standard is kind of like you know really future forward and there's not much happening there right it's like there's a lot of like big news and big announcements and very little volume uh and that's normal because like you know agents are not moving money at scale uh by by any stretch of imagination. uh we took a little bit of a different stance, right, which is that we want to build a mass market money account that suits the needs of people and businesses all over the world. And then uh we've built a safe scope delegation uh framework that enables those agents to actually use the debit card, use the 65 countries reach of moving money around, use like the multi-chain support for stable coins, and then you can delegate that. And so what I've done with mine and I've lived with it for the last like you know 5 weeks or so. So I have my grid global account and then I have an open claw running on a Mac mini at the office and I connected both and and and so it just takes a scoped debit card goes buy things online which is actually more difficult than I thought you know starting this but like it now works. uh it uh it can message uh people on WhatsApp that I need to send money to and offer them like you know seven or eight different ways to pay them and I don't have to worry about it. Um and it really works real time really really well and it's been it's been so much fun to actually build uh on OpenClaw and have like a money account that that that that Lobster could use. It's been it's been a lot of fun. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. >> Lobster accounts. >> Uh well, thank you so much for taking the time to come chat with us. Congrats on the progress. Great, great to get the update. I'm sure we'll we'll see you back to way deeper uh in the next uh >> hopefully in the next one or two quarters. >> Yeah. Fantastic. Sounds good. >> We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Have a great weekend. >> Up next, we have Turner Caldwell from Marina Mariana Materials. Mariana Materials like the Mariana Trench. We'll get into it with Turner Caldwell, the co-founder and CEO. Help me understand how to pronounce this company's name. I don't want to get it wrong. Uh, Mariana Minerals. >> Mariana. Okay. Where's the name come from? >> Uh, it comes from the Marsh. >> Mariana. >> But that's cuz we were looking. >> Let me guess. They've got some crazy minerals down there. Or do we even have >> There are some minerals at the bottom of the ocean. That's right. That we are looking at. >> So, you're saying you yearn for the trenches. >> That's right. There you go. >> Okay. Uh, the business is an autonomous copper mine. Can you take me a layer deeper? explain the history of the business, the current uh current shape of the business, where you where where you're taking it all. >> Yeah, sure thing. So, we just restarted a copper mine that we acquired at the end of last year with a major focus on uh autonomy across the entire stack. So, that includes >> um the kind of orchestration layers around uh mining operations as well as autonomous execution which we'll do with partners um and and then uh also autonomy around the refining processes. So the the site is a mine and a refinery. >> Yeah. >> Um >> but in practice, what does that look like? Like you go into the mine and there's and there's some like ERP system or maybe just some like manual paperbased workflow and you're saying like let's go vibe code a software solution for it like or is it >> more than vibe coding? But the basically basically the way to think about mining is that uh you have a whole bunch of different disciplines that have to collaborate. It's a big coordination problem. You have geologists, you have a geological block model, you'll have a mine plan. uh you'll usually have multiple mine plans like a long range, medium range, and short-range mine plan. Uh that has to be transferred to the mine operations teams that are running a like large scale auton not autonomous large scale manual uh mining equipment. >> Um then the uh like what is actually in the ore usually shows up on a piece of paper to the refinery saying like get ready to process this. Okay. Uh and then the refiner, the folks who are running the refinery have to figure out like kind of the optimal process conditions to maximize recovery of copper, lithium, nickel, cobalt, maganganesees, iron, graphite, kind of the whole thing, all of the different metals uh uh through the processing circuit. And so what we're doing is we're kind of integrating everything into one uh like integrated data frame uh first. And so there's a lot of work that goes into um kind of bringing all the data feeds back into one um like kind of uh aggregated architecture. Um and then we'll build world models of the minds of the refineries that we then use to kind of do a reinforcement learning training that we feed up into a reinforcement learning training pipeline. And then you want to close the loop between what reinforcement learning agents are recommending on the policies that are developed to the actual thing that's happening in the mind. And so, um, we'll bring autonomous hall trucks in, we'll bring autonomous drill rigs in, we'll bring in autonomous loaders and dozers and graders and water trucks, kind of like all the assets that are being used to run a a mine. Um, that today, you know, 99% of mines are are manned. Um, and we want to go full closed loop between kind of the world models and the reinforcement learning agents and and determining what the autonomous assets actually do and then that to the refinery. uh what do you think the potential efficiency gains are from going from legacy copper mine to the kind of endstate you know fully autonomous system? >> Yeah, I think it'll happen in two phases. I think the first phase is going to double productivity um through just like better orchestration and better logistics management and better utilization of all the equipment. Um the that's productivity and and and unit cost. you know, diesel is a good example for for heavy haul machinery. Like half of the diesel consumption up to half is from like idle time in the in the pit on the equipment. Um, and so there's a lot of kind of like short-term uh potential gains, but I also think that autonomy is going to fundamentally change. It's going to unlock a lot of like operating modes that can't really be done with humans. And so the way that the mining industry has kind of driven down cost over an extended period of time has been through scale. So the hall trucks are getting bigger, the shovels are getting bigger. Um, and it's all focused on kind of reducing your labor intensity. So, you know, maximizing tons of ore, tons of ore moved or tons of material moved per unit of like labor hour. Um, but as you move into like autonomous systems and eventually kind of like design the mines themselves to be autonomous, um, I think we're going to see things get smaller. Um, and like swarm mining is going to get unlocked and that's fundamentally going to enable you to actually kind of like be more selective in how you mine. your roads get smaller which means you can maximize kind of recovery of the ore from the pit. >> Um so I think it'll all happen in two phases. It's like take the existing architecture make it autonomous and maximize uh utilization and and availability of equipment. And then there's going to be this like once autonomy is kind of like fully demonstrated across the stack. There's going to be this opportunity to actually attack like fundamentally how is how our minds. >> You started the company in 2024. >> Yep. End of 2024. Uh raised a seed round in August. Uh we're at 220 people now across the company. Uh we have we have two projects. One is a lithium refinery in uh one's a one's a lithium refinery in uh in East Texas that's extracting lithium from oil and gas waste water and the and the other is our kind of first uh large scale commercial mine. >> Another one. He's got two. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Uh pitch >> I have a question. >> Pitch for you. Uh robotic canaries. >> Do they exist? We have >> we have we have we have a Boston Dynamics spot that is basically our like mobile sensing system uh you know instead of the canary in the coal mine. >> Um and and we use them mostly for like undercarriage inspection. So like you want to keep humans away from like heavy hall machinery. The closer they get to it obviously the more hazards that are present. Um but also like the chemical refineries ideally humans aren't walking through chemical plants all the time kind of doing thermal inspections. Uh there's a lot of stuff that's like auditory, so you're like listening for sounds of the motors sounding weird. Um and >> the Exactly. And then that all that all needs to feed back into uh >> into like again the integrated kind of like uh sensing uh integrated like data frame that tells you like how what's the healthier systems. >> Okay. Uh did you start with copper 2024? >> We started with lithium in 202. Um, and >> because because it feels like it feels like, you know, there's this whole autonomy story, more efficiency, all of that makes sense. But the price of copper's doubled since you started the company. And I feel like that just makes bringing a copper mine back online just wildly different from an economic perspective. And and it's very interesting that you're sitting at the tailwind of like two AI trends, which are just demand for copper for data center development, wires, circuitry, all this other stuff. and then you can actually be more efficient, but you can be as you can be as efficient as they were a couple years ago and just reap twice the price. It feels like the oil dynamic, right? >> Yeah, that that's right. But I I I don't think so. The reason you want to be diversified is because like all these metals are cyclical and you can't really like live and die by a single commodity price. And so the plan was always to diversify and the plan is to continue to diversify into nickel and cobalt and uranium and graphite and rare earths. Um, and the, you know, as we as we kind of worked to build 10 projects in the next 10 years. Um, but the, you know, we started working on this project kind of like well before copper had its like little explosion and and run that it's on. >> Um, because you don't really want to jump into projects in the middle of the hype. Like that's when you're going to pay the most for an asset. That's when you're going to like the labor pool is most conra is like most in demand. uh the equipment suppliers that make the equipment that is specific for a specific metal um are going to have longer lead times and and and have higher pricing. And so you really do want like we jumped into lithium when lithium was like at the bottom of its recent trough um and jumped into copper you know before it started to go on this run. So the generally we want to work on metals that we think have a long-term like supply demand imbalance and for copper it very it's like very much felt like grades are dropping or or deposits are getting deeper uh minologies are getting more complex and um it just means it's going to be a lot harder to make copper in the future and that's that's what we want to work on. >> What were you doing before this? >> Uh I was at Tesla for about a decade. Uh most recently was running our minerals and metals team. So, I was building our lithium refinery in Corpus Christie in Texas and running a lot of our battery recycling work. >> Very cool. Kind of like the absolutely most perfect background for company like this that any any a VC couldn't a VC couldn't dream of a more perfect resume for this business. >> What uh well, what's all the text in the Gulf behind you for that map? >> I understand that it's a map of America, but what's in the what's all the text for? So these are all um uh it's basically calling out like things that don't have space for the words on map. >> Okay. >> Um so it's just it's a it's a legend you got. Uh >> crazy detailed legend. >> Yep. Well, our project is right on the border with Louisiana. So that's the uh that's why we got it in the background on the lithium side. >> Well, you're a legend and thank you for coming on the show. Legendary appearance. >> Yeah, great great to meet you. >> Uh have a fantastic weekend. Thank you so much for coming on the show. We'll talk to you soon. >> Goodbye. >> Another one. >> We got another guest, Everett Taylor. He's the CEO of Kickstarter coming in the Ultra Jump. He's in the waiting room right now. Everett, how are you doing? Welcome to the show. >> I'm good. I'm good. Uh sunny Florida right now, so I'm escaping the cold in New York right now. So feeling good. How you how it going? >> Amazing. Uh I I'm very excited to talk about the Next Wave Fund. Uh, but first I'd love to know a little bit about your journey to Kickstarter, where the business is today, uh, what your dayto-day is like, how big is this company? Sort of set the set the ground for us. >> Yeah. So, I mean, Kickstarter, you know, started in in in 2009. I've been here >> uh about four years now. >> Yeah. >> And and, you know, we're the largest creative crowdfunding company in the world, and we still are today. Um, when I came into the company though, uh, the company was in a bit of decline. We were down 20% year-over-year really. Um, and since then, uh, you know, we've grown dramatically year-over-year. Last year, we had another record-breaking year. This year, we're already up 52% year-over-year over last year. So, the company has been scaling and growing um, as we are transitioning just from a crowdfunding company to more of a creator economy company. How has the AI boom, the Gen AI boom benefited or changed Kickstarter projects? When I think about the, you know, the catnip uh of Kickstarter project, it's like a board game that probably took a lot of time to to to build. And if the if the idea is great, I might not care if somebody used an image gen model to speed up the, you know, the graphics for a tree on the back of some playing card. I could see this being a bit >> Not at all. I mean, I'm sure a lot of Kickstarter creators historically were spending a ton of money on renders. >> Totally. Totally. But at the same time, there's Does this exist at all or is this just AI slop and there's a community dynamic and there's an artist displacement dynamic and so how have you grappled with the pros and cons of the last two years crazy boom in AI? >> Yeah, it's it's it's a it's a great question. On the AI side, funny enough, gaming is where it's probably the most controversial, right? because tends to be very artist forward, right? And so we've gotten probably the most push back and some of the most negative push back on the AI side from gaming because they really want to see artists be able to have jobs and do their thing. And so, you know, we were one of the first major tech companies to have our own AI policy. every Kickstarter creator if they're using AI, they actually have to say upfront how they're using AI, crediting crediting uh the artist, if they're using another artist, etc., etc. But on the design and technology side, these new AI powered, you know, tech products, especially in the hardware side, it's booming, right? So, both categories are growing, but you you see the differences in how people are accepting of AI. >> Yeah, that makes sense. Uh talk about the partnership with Google. What's the news? Yeah. So this week we announced the next wave fund with Google uh to power the next generation of tech innovation. I'm a you know founder myself. Um I saw the struggles you know being an early stage tech founder struggling to get funding. And so what we really wanted to do was give early t uh early stage tech startups and small business owners the funding they need, the tools to be successful, um the guidance that they need, and also be able to leverage Kickstarter's audience of millions of people to really get their first customers and scale their product. So this fund is focused on uh innovative products and hardware, software, gaming, and connected technology. and people will get $10,000 upfront uh non-dilutive capital um from Kickstarter and Google um to launch their products and their companies on Kickstarter. Um and we wanted to focus on these areas because Kickstarter has um just a natural product market fit for technology and gaming. There are two largest uh categories and we also have a a large audience for both. >> So you're going to have a huge portfolio. Well, Kickstarter doesn't take Kickstarter doesn't take any equity. I mean, I have an aura ring right now. I wish we did take some equity on that, but uh but uh yeah, we don't take any we don't take any equity. And so, this is really uh as a way to support support people, give them the tools that they need to be successful. Um and also build a relationship with Google, right? These people will have an opportunity to uh to apply to uh Google accelerators for their business as it grow and scales. they'll get access to our team that you know has decade plus of experience in uh scaling new products. So it's a great opportunity for a lot of people. >> Where can people get started? Uh take us through the is there an application process? Where does the where's the journey start for someone who wants to participate? >> Yes. So uh you can go to our to our website and and check out the next wave fund. You can apply. This is for entrepreneurs or small businesses with uh fewer than 20 full-time employees. Um, like I said, your project has to be focused on technology or digital gaming. Um, and uh, unfortunately, we we've been hearing this and we got to we got to shout out to our international uh, creators, but this uh, this is for the US only. So, uh, at least one member of your team has to be a citizen of the US and be 18 years old. So, >> well, lots of opportunities. Uh, and thank you for taking us through it. Thank you for taking the time to chat with us. Great to meet you >> and great to meet you. We'll talk to you soon. your favorite. Goodbye. Uh there are many more conversations going on in the timeline today. One was kicked off I think uh by Josh Kushner. I think he sort of started this. There were some other people talking about data center beautifification. Uh and he summed it up uh perfectly. He says make data centers aesthetically beautiful. And so people have been quote tweeting, posting, riffing on this uh sharing different ideas. more people would be pro data center if every data center had a beautiful open to the public heated pool. That's an interesting twist. Uh full water slide. I think uh halfpipe is a big idea. Monster truck rally constantly going on. These are ways to, you know, win people over. Sort of a nitro circus going on in every data center. >> Monster truck rally on the roof of a data center. >> Yeah. Sort of a universal basic nitro circus. So you get Are you familiar with Nitro Circus? Are you not? Are this a three fingers moment for you? You're like, I'm familiar. >> No, I'm just imagining they're building. >> Let's say you've never actually been to Nitro Circus. >> I'm imagining they're building the like dirt bike ramps over the data center. Exactly. Back flipping over. >> Exactly. Um uh Julie Young shares a trick. This one neat trick that Los Angeles uses to hide oil deckers. Uh we have a few oil derks in LA that are disguised as synagogues. They are literally just sitting in the middle of the city. LOL. Surprisingly few people are aware. There's a number of data centers that are disguised in Los Angeles as well. Usually you can tell because there's no windows in the building, but these exist in downtown usually for edge computing for uh like the content delivery network. You put storing your Netflix videos there. That type of stuff. Not doing training runs. Not gigawatt clusters. I did look up how how energy intensive uh uh Bitcoin is relative to what we think of of of AI. I think the numbers are uh open and anthropic are around two gigawatts in terms of capacity something like that. You know, we've heard about the Colossus data center. The average meta campus is around half a gigawatt. Zuck's building something in the one gigawatt range. There's gawatt a week plans. But uh if you were to put the Bitcoin network current sort of estimates using between 120 and 170 terowatt hours per year, what is that in average power in gigawatts? It's between 14 gawatts and 19 gawatt. And so that's where you should sort of comp Bitcoin to if you're putting it in AI terms in in the numbers that we throw around which are usually like a one. >> Before our next guest, Palmer Lucky has been getting into it with someone on the timeline. He says he responds to someone named Clifford by saying dumb tweet. Toto has been fabricating advanced ceramics for semiconductor manufacturing for many years. They make more money from that than toilets. Strong technical moat in a rapidly growing industry. Clifford says perhaps fair point but call me dumb under your real name or STFU coward just like not realizing that he's talking talking. >> But isn't Cliff Asnness like a big deal? I think he's an author. He's a his papers I've I've heard of Cliff Asnness before. Um >> it's funny because >> and so it is funny that they just like didn't over Oh, he's a co-founder of AQR Capital Management, hedge fund manager. If is this the right person? Forb's estimated net worth of three billion dollars >> I believe >> I think this is accurate. I think he he yeah global alpha started a career in 1990 20 worked at Goldman Sachs AQR >> I think he missed the the like andal >> he just hasn't seen the SVP SPVS or something uh stable asset management and other institutions in the aggregate made commitments of several hundred million dollars to a new multi-manager hedge fund he's published in academics uh he's done a bunch of stuff I've heard of I've heard of him before so this is very funny he runs he has he has a he has AQR. >> Oh, AQR. Yeah. Interesting. Anyway, uh >> very very funny. >> I believe we have our next guests in the waiting room. Let's bring them in to the TVPN Ultra Dome. Nomi Wonderco, welcome to the show. Uh would you mind both kicking us off with some introductions on each of you? >> Yeah, of course. Hey, Jordy, John, great to see you both. Uh so Justin Wexler, one of the general partners at Wonderco, working closely with Jeffrey Katzenberg. Uh and uh and you've met all of us. Yeah. SJ, Chinley, Jeff, Anthony. So it's been an amazing run. I've been with the firm since uh early 2017. Uh and also on the board of Nati. So >> Okay. So yes, introduce Nomi. Yeah. >> Awesome. Great to see both of you. Uh my name is Punit. I'm the founder CEO of NTOMI. We are an agentic application tier company focused on the customer experience use case. >> Okay. Uh what what specifically in customer experience? Is that different than customer service or are we doing surveys to understand how companies are and products are being received? All of the above. What's the shape of the business today? >> Yeah, we look at customer experience a little bit differently than how most uh companies and AI have have looked at this. So if you if you think about it historically businesses were designed as as sales as marketing as customer service because that's how the customer journeys were created and they had to keep those silos to keep cost efficient but you know with uh with the Gent now there's a resource that has become abundant you could apply it through the journey that's what we are doing and also one of the key factors is if you think about traditional customer service it looks at customer journeys and it says we'll wait for something to break and then fix it after the And then hopefully we regain that trust. We are saying hey you got you you can address this upstream. You can address this in digital experiences. You don't even have to wait for the problem to occur. So that's what we are doing and that's why we are excited to partner with extension and Adobe in this financing that we just announced and uh we're going to do this for all the Fortune 500. >> Talk about the decision to go with enterprise versus uh small business. Was it ever on the table to go broader selfs serve or is this is there something unique about the technology where you're it's actually more suitable for enterprise use cases right now or is that just your personal DNA where you flourish? >> Um actually all of the above. So my personal DNA I I grew up in automated trading uh building event engines for for different firms on Wall Street. >> I like it. >> Born in the enterprise. Exactly. Born in the enterprise. born in low low latency systems born in event correlation all of those things that just came together for this uh but also we looked at where is money getting spent for this problem so if you look at broadly human capital spend is about $500 billion a year about 75% of that comes from the world's largest enterprise literally under a thousand companies right so that's how fragmented the market is and now with NOMI's technology you know you could run the autonomous front office. So when you do that, not only is that a cost efficiency which more than pays for itself, it really transforms the entire company because you can connect all the systems processes right in those agentic flows and in that sanction architecture presented safely to your customers. Um so yes, love that medium to high complexity, love the enterprise complexity comes in the DNA. That's what we are the world's best at. Yeah, just to add to that. >> Yeah. Um, so at WonderCo, as you all know, we invest in consumer, we invest in different areas of technology. Um, but a big focus for us is enterprise and how enterprise is going to evolve with technology, particularly AI technology. Uh I'm fortunate that I work with Jeffrey who has a lot of great relationships across enterprise and um thinking through how to apply agentic capabilities in these organizations is very top of mind. We invested in Punit actually before the um this AI paradigm of you know chat GPT and everything that we know today. Um and so we've been a little early to this uh but knew Punit's DNA as uh these advances became uh more prominent was really the right leader to build for large enterprises. Uh and so with Punit we sat down with leaders at Delta, United, MetLife who have all had huge success deploying NTOMI. Uh a big proud moment for us was when the Yeah. No, it's it's pretty incredible. Anyone could go on the United mobile app and see powered by NATO. uh and interacts with uh with NTOMI. Uh and then earlier this year, OpenAI recognized NTOMI uh on one of the case studies calling it the blueprint for deploying large scale Gentic AI. Um so it's just had a lot of great moments um over the last couple of years. uh and that's what inspired Punit and me to really sit down and think about okay this has been proven at scale but what's the coalition around this technology that would really allow it to be in the hands of many many more millions of consumers and so that's why this rounds brings together Accenture no one knows enterprise complexity better than them and their seal of approval on this company is is is a huge sign to enterprises that this is what they should be deploying yeah absolutely and then with Adobe uh the idea with Adobe is, you know, many times chat interfaces sit on top of websites. Uh, and while it's a step above prior technology, the next generation is going to bring those capabilities into the digital layer itself. So, not having the website and then the chat disconnected on top, but fusing these two layers and the work that Natomy and Adobe are doing together, and we can talk a bit more about it, um, is going to bring about a gentic digital experience. >> Sure. Uh, tell us about the round. I want to hit the gong. How much came together for this deal? >> What's the total? >> We raised $110 million. >> There we go. >> Awesome. >> Damn. Well, that that shook the whole room. >> It's a good one. >> Look at this leg. >> Yeah. Yeah, we we are we are here to shake the room. >> Fantastic. >> So, so yeah, all all focused towards enterprise deployment. All focused towards the last mile of AI. You know, we think AI really needs a big enterprise win. that's ROI positive where large companies can go on their earnings call and say this is what AI did for me. That's what we want to deliver for the entire community. >> I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come break it down for us. Congrats on the round coming together and the progress. It's >> at this rate. I'm sure you'll be back on this year. >> Yeah, we're excited. We'll talk to you all soon. Have a great weekend. Have a great rest of your day. >> Talk soon. >> Talk to you soon. Goodbye. Uh we have an update from the chat. Uh, Cliff Asnice has been on Patrick Oshanosy's Invest Like the Best. You know who else has been on Invest Like the Best? Palmer Lucky. They've both been on the same podcast. Didn't know about each other. They got to do a crossover episode backto back. If you're looking to get up to speed on both Palmer and Cliff as head over to Invest Like the Best with Patrick Oshley. You can listen to both episodes. Although Cliff was on in 2018, almost a decade ago. he's got to go back on, set the record straight on who he knows, who he doesn't know. Anyway, uh there's there's more debate over the data center thing. Um some very cool renders, some very cool ideas. I think uh the the the problem is that the the the plans are delayed, plans are set years in advance. Uh any any move to actually make data centers beautiful is going to take a long time. Hopefully, uh this feels like one of those things where them better. I don't >> data center operators would would say I would love for my competitors to focus on making their data centers beautiful. Yeah. And really make that a part of their strategy >> while uh while the the Zucks of the world, you know, throw up like REI tents throwing GPUs. >> Exactly. People will do uh the minimum viable beautifification potentially. But uh Dan Lincoln Harris has some comments here. Love that we are having this conversation. The questions that flow from Josh com comment are why and what we should aim towards. These should be places of wonder that we can marvel at. Modern cathedrals for the silicon age not to worship them but to stoke our aspirations. Square gray boxes do not inspire. Speak for yourself. I like a square gray box every once in a while. Given the epicenter of this technological revolution was California, the light and space movement seems a fitting direction. James Terrell is the me is the most well known for this movement and he shares some James Terrell uh images which are absolutely beautiful. Good inspiration if you're a data center builder. Um you can also just throw some trees do some AI imagery here. Perhaps people wouldn't be so against data centers if they were built in the style of the Elf City Rivendell. That's kind of cool. Greco Futurism. They do look cooler this way, but it looks a lot more expensive than just some walls. So, who knows if we will see any >> this video >> progress, but >> just in skin exams are getting automated. >> Oh, yes. >> This is a very cool product. >> Okay, break it down for us. Let's pull >> uh we have video here. >> Yes. uh >> I think anybody that's been to a dermatologist >> it's like looking for potential um you know skin cancers things like that that abnor abnormalities has had the experience of like the you know the when you're you know that video or the meme where the the guy's like walking through security and the and the security guys just like >> you know does this like really like pat down. It's like that's basically what like a lot of dermatologists are doing where they just like take a quick glance and they're like, "Oh, yeah. Look, look, looks good." >> Yeah. They might be busy. They might be sleeping back in like a couple years. >> So, a robot that just does it like really really precisely consistently um ideally uh hopefully hopefully a lot more accessibly. I can see this making a lot of sense. And then you actually it doesn't even replace the job of >> doctor just helps them um speed up the process. Uh where is this company? What stage are they? Do they have to go through FDA medical uh device approval process? That could be a couple years maybe. But this seems like once you get it uh through it's going to be massively successful. Um I wonder I wonder where they are in the FDA process. Hopefully they can move along quickly. Um ARC Prize put out an update on ARC AGI V3 which Tyler, are you still on the human leaderboard for that or >> I don't think I'm on the leaderboard anymore. That was still early on. Like I I think there's actually more games now. >> Roasted. Uh well, Arc AGI V3 has been very tough for even the most frontier AI models, but the good folks over at Arc Prize have benchmarked the two latest and greatest AI models from OpenAI and Anthropic. GBT 5.5 scored 0.43%. Opus 4.7 scored 0.18%. It is it is state-of-the-art. This is the weird thing about these uh these RKGI tests is that they they start with such a low baseline 0% 1% and then they start s they start shooting up as the models get more capable. But it is very interesting and reassuring to see these powerful models that you sometimes hear these narratives it can do everything and then ah there's something that you know to to continue working for to look forward to in the future. there's more uh there's more applications here. And so they found three total failure modes uh true local effect, false world model, wrong level of abstraction from training data. Solve the level but didn't reinforce the reward. And so the ARC prize account goes through a little bit of what's going on when an AI model tries to play ARGI v3, which is basically a 2D video game. uh simple enough for any human to progress through but increasingly difficult for AI models. >> Okay, >> we got to talk about one of the most exciting new products created in the last hundred years. Tell me, >> according to Katie at Business Insider, >> uh Amazon will now create an AI podcast about their products where two AI hosts discuss the products and take your questions as if it's a call-in show. >> Yes, >> let's play. >> We don't need to play this one. This one is so rude, but you can imagine the type of products that people are generating AI podcasts for. Only the silliest things will be generated. Uh I don't know if people want to listen to a full podcast about every product they buy on Amazon. But you have had some very strong opinions about uh paper towels. You wanted paper towels from like the 1950s or something. Remember this whole thing? You didn't want >> Well, I I just wanted a filter to be able to buy only shop for things on Amazon. Now, instead of a filter, you can listen to an hourong podcast about every possible skew and then you can make the most determined uh decision available. Well, we have Alex from OpenAI. He's a member of product staff here to talk about codecs and GPT 5.5. I believe he's in the waiting room. So, let's bring him >> to the TVP Ultra. Alex, how are you doing? >> Hey, doing great. How are you guys? >> We're doing fantastic. >> Close to the camera. You make me want to you make me want to scoot out. >> Some people come on and it's standoffish. It's just like a little bit of >> No, you're locked in. You're locked in. >> Okay. So, uh give us some updates uh on codeex. I mean, we've seen some crazy numbers, things that seem like they're going well, but what I'm most interested in is uh applications, usages, just as I'm talking to friends and folks that are, you know, outside of the most intimate tech community. Uh what are the magical experiences? What are the prompts, the usages that are seeing adoption? How should people even be thinking about codecs and chatbt these days? >> Totally. I mean, it is such an exciting time. I feel like last year was the explosion of agents for coding. >> Yeah. >> You know, now we bring it to to everyone else. Uh Codex now is becoming this like amazing tool for just like general work or honestly anything you can do on your computer. Yeah. >> So, uh the model launch uh was it was that only last week? I think it was last week. >> It really feels like a month ago. >> Yeah. Yeah, honestly I lose track of time, but like you know API revenue for that model is growing 2x faster than any prior release. Like Codex revenue actually doubled in the last week. So it's just like the growth is insane. >> Yeah. >> Um and what's cool is that obviously the growth in usage and the way people are using Codex for coding is is just like getting way better. But I think this is kind of what you're asking for. There have been we're making Codex great for everyone. That's all the way from like what the agent can do and also just like how simple it is to use. >> Yeah. Um and so now we have uh you know codecs being used by like sales people, marketing people, finance people, data science people, whatever you whatever you're thinking. Yeah. Uh it's like 85% of the company uses Codex and we're seeing this happen outside as well. So yeah, I'm happy to jump into some fun use cases if you want. Uh I wanted to ask about like how you feel the the perception around computer use has been like it felt like there were so many things that that got released at one time that that kind of was quite magical and you see some posts popping up here and there but do you feel like that's getting the attention that it that it deserves now? Yeah, I mean like so broadly what we have is we have this amazing amazing agent that can write code and if we want it to do more work than just coding work, it needs to be able to do anything you can do on your computer. And so computer use is this big step because it's like hey well now it basically can do anything you can do on your computer. But the magical part of computer use and that the team really cooked here uh is that it can use applications in the background. Mhm. >> Um, so you could be doing something in one app and the agent can be doing something in the another app and that's important because it means you can actually delegate which means you can give the agent hard tasks that take us some time to do. So yeah, I mean the reception around that was actually awesome. I I thought we got >> people noticed sort of just how hard and magical that is >> uh more so than I even expected. So yeah, we've been really happy with that. >> Yeah. Uh I I I've noticed that uh codeex puppeteering a mouse cursor has gotten good. It feels like it crossed some sort of like touring test where when I see a video of Codeex moving a mouse around, it doesn't read to me like, oh, that's a jittery that like the AI is using. It just looks like, oh, somebody just recorded themselves moving the mouse. Is there a benchmark? Is that is that something that just comes from the new model or work that's being done on codecs? Like what is going on with the progress to the sky team? >> Yeah. >> Acquisition. >> Yeah. So, so there's kind of like three things going on there. Like first of all, GPT 5.5 is our best model ever for like general work or knowledge work. Yeah. >> And so it's really good at using computers. >> Um the next thing is well what harness do you give the model or like what information is the model seeing and like what tools does it have to use the computer. >> Um a lot of early versions of giving a model access to a computer. We're just giving it screenshots of the computer. >> But there's a lot of secret sauce in our implementation where the model actually gets text representations of what's on screen from like frameworks like accessibility. >> Sure. Um, and so the model is like much more efficient when it has access to all this information. >> Um, and then the last bit that I I honestly think, well, I don't know if I would say it's underappreciated because I feel like people really appreciated it, but it's the level of craft that was put in to how it feels when the agent is using the computer. So, for instance, you could totally just have the agent like click around on your screen and just have that be invisible and and you know, you wouldn't even it just like the computer is updating as clicks happen. But the team put a ton of care into like exactly the animation that this like mouse cursor takes as it goes between the different click positions. And yeah, I was it was really fun to talk about that and jam on that with them. Like we actually made some interesting trade-offs. Like having this animation actually slows down how quickly the agent can work by just a tiny bit, >> but it means that it's so much easier as a human for me to understand the system and therefore to trust the system. >> Yeah, that's interesting. that that sort of goes back to I remember the uh the initial Chat GBT app launch on iOS had haptic feedback as the token streamed in and so it felt like it was typing and that could have easily just been generate the full response give you a little waiting wheel and then boom it loads like a web page like when I go to you know the New York Times like the whole page loads it doesn't stream in but that streaming made it feel more like a conversation And those little like UX cues uh help like create this more like interactive uh motion back and forth. That's very interesting. >> Uh someone's trying codeex for the first time. What are you've got one minute to explain the three things that they should do to get the most out of it? What do you tell them? >> Okay, cool. Is this person an engineer or are they like a knowledge worker? >> Let's say not an engineer because I feel like >> Well, no, let's do let's do both. >> Sure. Yeah, let's start with engineer. >> Okay, start with engineer. Um, if someone's using Codex for the first time, I just say download, uh, codeex, um, you know, attach connect it to your project, whatever you've been working on, and then ask it a question about your codebase, like a hard architecture question, and it's just going to give you an amazing answer. >> Then the next thing you do is you say, cool, like, give it a bug that you've been trying to track down >> um, and ask it to solve the bug. And like I hear this all the time, like on Twitter, etc. Like people will be like, "Hey, I was trying to solve this bug myself. Couldn't do it. I gave it to like all the other coding agents. they couldn't do it, but Codex could do it. And then maybe as a final thing to like experience a little bit of the magic that has shipped in the last week or two, >> um if you're working on like something that's like has a web view, like maybe a website or something like that, um ask codeex to make a change and then like watch it just like iterate on that change by opening the inapp browser um and sort of observing its outputs, clicking around, and then like naturally just like fix and improve the change that it made. It's like it's super magical cuz you just realize when you see it like work in that loop, you just realize how powerful it is now. >> Okay, speaking of loops, explain Ralph loop explain slashgoal. >> Okay, so basically um we've had this interesting thing for a long time where people, this is like months ago, people would tell us that they knew the Codex was super powerful, but it felt annoying to work with because they had to like constantly tell the agent, you can do this, keep going. Right? So you have this like brilliant model but you have to like encourage it constantly. >> Um we then shipped a feature called queueing which you can use to give the agent a message uh that it will like receive whenever it thinks it's done. And people use that to say do this then do that then do that but actually a lot of people started using that to just say keep going. So like they would just cue like 10 messages like keep going keep going. >> Yeah. Exactly. Uh and so you know now at this point we have these amazing models that if you know how to use in the right way you can have them do hours of work or even days of work just like independently autonomously. Uh however you know the average person doesn't necessarily know how to do that. You have to do like all this contrived harness setup. And so with goal uh which is a feature that we shipped into the into the command line interface and we'll come to the app soon. Uh we wanted to make that super easy. So now you could basically describe to like hey like I want you to keep going and until you achieve this goal and then codeex will just take care of working for however long you need until you can do that. And so internally this is something that people have been really excited for for a long time. Uh when we do a lot of like long running work. So for example when you're like babysitting like a a training run for a model you don't want to just like tell Codex to do something and then have it return in five minutes. You actually want it to pay attention like all night. >> Um so that's what that's what goal is. >> Um do you want Yeah. Go ahead. Uh I was wondering about the like what is for for the non-engineer use case the thing that gets you to move from chat GBT to codeex like the first the first uh the first like more complicated query more complicated project that uh you would recommend someone say oh yeah like chat GBT can do a decent amount of research but for this you should spin up C codeex and and and start working with that as your primary workflow like what is the entry point what is the the the appetizer into the codeex workflow for someone who's nontechnical not writing code wouldn't mind if code was written behind the scenes but really just is interacting with typical knowledge work suite so email spreadsheets word docs generating graphics research uh there's a lot of stuff And Chadgpt satisfies a ton of that. And so when are they jumping over to codeex? >> Yeah. So I kind of think about the way that you can do general work in codeex. There's maybe three categories of work. There's like just very easy tasks. >> And that's not to dismiss those. Actually I most of my usage of codecs is like easy tasks. >> And those are the first things you should try. Then there's like hard tasks that are like really cool demos, but actually if you start trying to do a hard demo, you might you might just like waste a lot of time. And then there's automating. So everyone should kind of go through this progression. It's like easy, hard, automated. And if you think about it, it's kind of like a human teammate, right? Like if you hire someone onto your team, >> uh, you know, you don't usually, well, maybe at Open AI we do, but you don't just say like, "Hey, just like figure out what you want to do." Maybe what you do is you say like, "Hey, like why don't you do this like small starter task or something?" And then from there give them a harder and harder task and then eventually you say, "Okay, just like go figure it out and work automatically." >> Mhm. >> So, okay, easy tasks. The thing I always recommend people do is like wherever your company works at OpenAI, that's Slack. Maybe for you it's Teams or it's email. connect Codex to that tool and then just ask it like hey like am I missing any urgent like do I need to reply to anything urgently just like draft some answers for me or maybe like I get tagged on these really long threads all the time it's like hey just summarize this thread what am I what am I being asked what should I what what should I answer you know just ask these like these questions like or maybe someone mention something you don't know what it is and you're just like hey like search all my company information and tell me what is XYZ you know the thing um so those are really basic easy queries that Codex is amazing at and I have found that even though those may not sound that hard, people just get hooked on doing that all the time. And then from there, once you're hooked and you kind of become fluent in using this tool to answer any even small question, use it for harder things. So, for example, one of the use cases that I do a lot that tends to like really get other people excited when they see it is I, you know, we we don't like meetings. I try to keep meeting attendees to a minimum here. So often instead of adding people to a meeting, I'll post in a channel and say if anyone wants to talk live about this, just reply. And this is something I used to do, you know, from before, but now what I do is I I tell Codeex, post in this channel, see who wants to join and add anyone who wants to join to the meeting. >> Sure. >> Super basic thing, right? >> But the fact that you can ask an agent to do a thing and then monitor that post >> and then like just keep it up to date, >> Sure. >> is actually really powerful. And then when people reply to the the post and then the the agent replies back saying like, "Cool, you're in the meeting. It's at this time. Here's the link." >> That always mindblows people. Yeah. >> Um and then you start people start trolling. You know, people are like, "Add Sam to the meeting." The agent knows not to. >> Yeah. Because that's just like functionally what what uh if you're lucky enough to have an EA, you get something like that where it's like, "Hey, I need to get this thing done. I'm going to kind of set it. I'm gonna I I want to set off the process but then someone else monitoring it kind of backfilling it. >> I think any any work that requires like a lot of work like a lot of time from you but is not hard those are good starter tasks. Um, you know, same for like managing tasks, you know, tracking issues coming out of a bug bash or like pre-launch we do this thing where >> um I'll have codeex monitor all a bunch of channels I'm in uh with internal and external users and I'll just say hey if anything comes up put this into in linear which is where we track our bugs and like >> make sure it's dduplicated um and then let people know that we're tracking the bug. >> Um so you know very very simple task but actually incredibly useful timewise. Last thing I'll say on this is we have >> a executive assistant kind of like plugin internally that I would love to ship externally. We should get on that and it's really taken off internally. Like people basically have this thing uh that is like keeping track of all their information and just like helping them organize their day and like stay on top of things. It's it's pretty cool. So then, yeah, talk to me about automation because I I I understand from integrations and computer use how a single prompt could go into Slack or go into your email or pull some documents together, write code, do whatever it needs to on the internet, APIs. I understand all that, but then uh what is the workflow to get Codeex to do something every morning at 7 am to prepare me a digest or take the same actions to really get rid of that wrote work that I've I've demoed and I've seen the results. It's working and now I just don't want to think about it ever again forever. >> Yeah. I mean, so it's it's honestly super simple. You just tell Codex, hey, do this every morning and >> Right. Well, like in my case, >> yeah, I mean, that's kind of an interesting thing with these kind of >> products that have effectively unlimited potential is like where's the line between like a feature and just a prompt? >> Yeah. >> And uh when when should as a company when should you just launch something and make a big moment out of it or when should you just let people just understand the full potential of it and then when they want something they can just ask it, right? They don't need to like request a feature. just like literally just request it >> with the agent. >> It's really interesting as we design the product like I like to think that we need to keep sort of all the rules and like sort of the heavy UI and stuff around the agent to a minimum because it kind of constrains >> uh how much better the product can get when we have a smarter model. So the more things we can kind of like let the model decide, you know, it's like it's AI soon AGI uh the better. Um and then sometimes you just need UI so that people can learn that this thing exists. Um but even that the model can suggest things. So I I'll give you the most powerful I think example of a use case I heard recently was um this person on the growth team needs to figure out like what experiments to run and then they need to write code to run the experiment and then they need to analyze the experiment and it turns out they were using they started using codeex individually for each separate thing. They would have it like run a bunch of analyses and they would sort of interrogate the data. You know, they would just talk to Codex about the data. Um, and then they would pick an experiment and then they would like write ask Codex to write the code. Then they would run the experiment and they would ask Codex what the results of the experiment were and then they would like produce a deck, >> right? So all steps they were doing individually and they they didn't start by saying I'm going to automate this entire thing because that's like hard and scary, right? They just started with using codecs like to accelerate themselves individual productivity for each task. Then they started um basically connecting all these things together into a giant skill. And then one day uh they just said, "Hey, why don't you do this every morning?" And they gave it a name. It's called Lord bottleneck because it's like solving the bottlenecks of like friction for new users. And basically this is the thing the team does now. Every morning Lord bottleneck evaluates past experiments, looks at data, looks at new things, proposes some experiments and offers to the team like hey like let's run these experiments. the team like picks like let's do this one or that one. Then Lord Box is like, "Okay, cool. Here's some code or whatever config that needs to be done." Runs the experiment and at the end they like they go and do the same loop the next day and analyze the results. And so that's actually like really serious value in automation that's like I forget the numbers but it's produced like you know significant company value uh just automatically through codeex. >> How are you thinking about game development? It feels like all of these tools are super useful and could really accelerate game development, >> especially with images, too. >> Totally. Uh, I think there was a time when like everyone had an idea for a meme, but not everyone knew Photoshop. Now, everyone can go and use images and chatt to sort of make the exact meme that they want very quickly, very easily. And there's this takeoff in like everyone can create the thing. Now everyone can vibe code a Python script pretty easily. Uh and it feels like the next thing is like going and shipping something. And we're starting seeing these like simulators and these little one-off like web games. uh it's still a little bit like proumer I would say but is this something that you think just uh is like a natural out outgrowth or something where uh you might actually spend some cycles thinking about that as a particular like workflow. >> Yeah. I mean I think I'm really just excited about how easy it's becoming for everyone to bring their ideas to life. image gen you bring up image genen that was actually a really big deal in a way that >> I still think people don't really realize like having an an agent able to just generate images as it's working is massive I mean image into itself is actually really popular and is great even outside of codeex like I think >> um let me see here yeah like I think we are like people are making like 50% more images with image gen 2 just like a few weeks after launch than they were before so it's like really taking off and it was already popular but then with image gen we see all these cool use cases where people will have the agent, let's say we'll take a development and a non-development use case. For development, they'll have it like build a bunch of sprites. Sprites is like a term for like the image that you use in your game. >> Yep. >> Um so for so like one cool example of this um is like in the GPT 5.4 for our blog, we have some example prompts to try and one of them is like I forget, but it's it's like um build like an uh roller coaster simulator or arcade simulator or something and you can just copy paste that prompt into codeex now and it's it's just like even better because codex will like create all the assets for the game using image gen and then like build a game using it and then play the game for you to test it in the inapp browser. So yes, this is happening very naturally and I suspect it would be quite interesting to lean into it to make it even better. >> Yeah. Um, a cool like non um non-coding use case is we're seeing people use image gen to create slides or like slide templates or assets to go in slides and then produce the slide deck which again you can iterate on just inside the codeex app. >> So yeah, im images are massive for us. >> Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Jordy, anything else? >> No, this is great. >> Appreciate the update. >> Uh I'm sure you there will be >> many more >> a ton more news by by this time next week. Yeah, we're joking about like how many Thursdays can we ship in a row, you know, like >> Well, the more the more you ship, the easier it is to ship. So, it's a it's a good feedback loop. >> That's fantastic. Uh, thank you so much for taking >> Great to see you, dude. >> Great to see you. We'll talk to you soon. Have a great weekend. Goodbye. >> Uh, should we show show everyone the game that we made? Should we show everyone TBPN Simulator? Do we have that pulled up? Can we play that? Would Would now be a good time? It's a later. >> We might not have enough time. >> We can have them pull it up while we while we read through the >> Let's pull up this packaging of the Neo robot over at 1X. >> The Neo robot over at 1X. >> Have you seen this? They made it. They got a suitcase. >> They got a suitcase. >> That is remarkable. Let's pull this up. >> This This packaging is strong aesthetic. This warm tone. It's It's welcoming. I got to say it's really cool until it's 2:00 a.m. and you hear shaking in your house and you go and you turn on the lights and this little like, you know, suitcase thing shaking and then Neo pops out >> and I and goes Terminator mode. I wouldn't know what that what that actually is like, >> but uh I'm going to watch Terminator >> this weekend and report back. >> Ridiculous. Wow. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Meta collectively are spending more money than the Manhattan project every single month. That's insane. Uh, wow. Wild. Um, anyway, in the mansion section, uh, there is a record-breaking home in Los Angeles with a question. Will a Los Angeles area mega mansion become America's most expensive residential property? $400 million. They're asking, $70,000 square feet. The the guest house is 30,000 square ft. It's absolutely insane. 39 bedrooms, 8 acres, three pools. It has an X-ray machine. This is in the mansion section of the Wall Street Journal. Uh, fascinating because Tyler was unimpressed and I was wondering like what could possibly be better than a $400 million mega mansion in Los Angeles. But you found something. What? What? Absolutely. >> Well, I was comparing it to, you know, some kind of palatial manner, right? So clearly it's like Versailles. for size, you know, 10x bigger. It's like it's like 700,000 square,00 indoor space. Obviously, with the gardens, it's like millions of square footage. >> Millions of square foot. >> You're kind of just getting brutally mobed. >> What about on bedrooms? This one has 39. You certainly can't go higher than 39 bedrooms. >> I think it was. Yeah. 2,300. >> 2300. >> Oh, no, no, that was just rooms, actually. >> Rooms. Okay. Okay. So, not all bedrooms, but I mean, if you need a buddy who crashes, like they can crash in any room, right? Like, you know, have you ever slept in a kitchen? You've never had We don't have any room here. You got to sleep in the You got to sleep in the living room. You got to sleep in the dining room. Lucky. >> All right, let's pull up the trailer for TVPN Simulator. >> Oh, we have a trailer. >> Yeah, we got the trailer. >> Oh, let's go. Let's watch this. >> I think TVPN needs a game. >> Yeah, we definitely need to build some sort of game. This This project has evolved so so much to the point where you can move the goalposts. I don't know that you can interact with the horse. You can definitely hit the gong and then any team member is now playable. Okay. Oh, wait. So, there is a mechanic. You have to gain the most subscribers. Interesting. Yes, you have to puzzle piece everything. You can watch the stream in the game. You can explore the Ultra Dome. It's a full replication. tbpsimulator.com sloppy. >> That was image gen one. >> Is that image? >> Image gen two would never do that. But but can we pull the actual game up? Oops. Hopefully. >> Yeah, here it comes. >> Didn't pop up. Um if we can pull up the actual the actual game. Uh let's uh let's see. >> There's a whole bunch of good stuff on here. Okay, so this is TBPN Simulator, the latest and greatest version. A remarkable How, Ben? How did you actually get this like the geometry in here? Was this all described via prop? >> Here we got intern Ben here to >> Yeah. talk. >> Yeah. So, basically the whole process is kind of like I'm like, "Okay, look at that wall right there." >> Yeah. >> I need that to be taller. I need to place a desk right at that wall. So, the whole idea was that I every single object >> so I was able to like talk. >> Is there someone else in the game? >> Wait, it's multiplayer. >> It's multiplayer. Wait, so we're getting other people in the game right now? Oh no, people are coming in. There's Mark. TV tvpnsimulator.com. I can't believe it's multiplayer. I can't believe you created a multiplayer game. Okay, so we got the bathroom. >> Okay, this is incredibly >> No, no, no, no. Get out of there. Get out of there. Okay, so uh there's a chess board which was gifted to us. >> Ring the gong to the actual studio. >> Okay. Oh, gong cool down. And then those are the the the the photos that we take. And there's the Ultra Dome. Okay. It's a onetoone liar scanned measurement. >> Did you Wait, did you actually liar scan? >> I lied scanned it though. >> Okay. >> Yeah, the measurements and you can play as any character. So, yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. So, what Yeah. What does it take to to make it in TVPN simulator >> camera cut? >> Okay. So, you're watching the show and you need to cut between Oh, so you get a current queue and you have to cut between different cues on at the right time to produce the show live. Okay. We have Tyler. We have Mark in TVPN Simulator. Okay. What else can you do here? >> How much activity? Like 35% of >> Is this from yesterday? Oh, this is yesterday's show is playing currently. Okay. >> So, you're using the wall of >> And if you're play as uh you have to do a miniame, which is Guitar Hero but with soundboard basically. Is that the game? >> Let's hear. >> Overnight success. >> Friendly IPO inbound. So, you have to you have to hit the soundboard at the right time as the blocks come down. Okay. >> Things like >> I think I was doing some ad reads for a while. There's a gong, of course. We're really packing the Ultradome. We'll see if this thing has high throughput networking. Uh, you can play as the guest. What do you play as the guest? You just see what it's like to be a guest on TVPN. Okay. >> You can Someone's moving the gopost. Okay, we got a new definition for artificial general intelligence chat. I didn't realize that. >> Yeah, the the the chat has joined the the game. Oh yeah, someone says make it a Roblox game. This does have some Roblox aesthetics, but this is not this was vibe coded. And so this is creating the daily newsletter. You have to uh stack the different blocks, the strips. It says per perfect alignment, published clean. That's Brandon Guerell's job. Nick has to of course fix the schedule, get everyone to come together. We're watching some Tetriset. You're trying to calendar Tetris fit. How are you going to get Patrick Collison and Brian Chesy on the show with Alex Karp and Mark Benny off all at the same time? How will you do that? >> Paul Kugan, >> there we go. And then this is uh this is Tyler organizing the show, figuring out how to get different posts into the show. Okay. Oh, here you go. You're moving the different Oh, you're jammed up there. You're jammed up there. You got to keep working on that. What else is this? What is Jackson up to? Making cards. What are we doing here? What? Oh, whack a clip. Okay, the timeline sniper. There's breaking news. You got to turn. You ramble. You don't want to cut that. Okay. You wanna you want to hit the good hot takes at the right time. That is fantastic. I cannot believe the number of mini games here. This is insane. What a remarkable Oh, this is me. Okay, so I have to read different phrases. It's a It's a typing game. I can because I have to read without a teleprompter. Live from the TVPN Ultradome. Uh oh, someone's typing in correctly. >> Phrase deck. Okay. >> Well, we got a whole bunch of people. You can go enjoy it. Hopefully people are playing TBPN Simulator all weekend long. >> Yeah. >> People to put up. >> I mean, if you're launching a TBPN type show, this is a great way to get your reps. Get some practice in before you go live. Get our mastermind. >> Yeah, it is. It is the path of financial freedom for a lot of folks. So, we recommend it. We endorse it. Uh get your reps in on tbpsimulator.com and we will see you on Monday. Anything else, Jordy? Is it actually live? >> I think it's live. Yeah. Wow. No. Yeah, people are in there. They're playing TV. >> We got We got to change We got to change the the slop uh images. >> Okay, we'll work on those. A lot of >> incredibly well done, Ben. And uh >> our first video game. >> Truly hilarious. And >> people are asking for a wave pool. >> That's true. We do need a wave pool. >> We don't have a wave pool in here. Well, that's not a simulation, >> but we if if we make it in the simulator, it's probably increases the likelihood. >> I think I think the key is you have to be able to sit down in one of those laptops and play an even rougher version of TVPN simulator two layers deep. >> That's how you simulate Ben. >> That No, no, no. Yeah, yeah. When you simulate Ben, it should go into a 2D version, top down low, even lower res graphics, pixel art. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> A pixel art version of TV Simulator two layers deep. And we can see how how how deep we how deep the the rabbit hole goes. But will you break out of the matrix? We certainly hope you do this weekend. Go enjoy your weekend. Enjoy your Friday. We will see you on Monday. >> Goodbye. >> Flashbang.