Heating Entrepreneurs Productizing Waste Heat | Bitcoin 2026

Thank you very much. Yeah. Uh, closing out the conference with a good topic, productizing waste heat. I think last year we made a little bit of fun of the name of the title. They still didn't get it right this year. We don't really view the heat as waste. I don't think it's it's pretty much the core part of each of our businesses. >> Yeah. >> So, touch on that at some point. >> We should touch on that at some point, but why don't we start with Jason introducing yourself, working our way down the line, who you are and how Bitcoin mining is a part of your business. >> Sounds good. Thanks, Tyler. Um, so I'm Jason. and I'm one of uh a couple co-founders from Bath House, which is exactly what it sounds like. It's a bath house. So, we build, own, operate large scale facilities for sauna, coal plunge, that kind of thing. And we do onsite uh mining. We recapture the heat and we use that heat to heat our pools and also some of our marble homs, that kind of stuff. And we used to have electric heaters, electric boilers, energy neutral. So we're using the same manager we always did. And so as we grew, we kept scaling that out. And just real quick before I pass the mic, how many Sauna fans in the audience? Okay, my people are here. See me after. I got a limited edition sauna hat for you guys. Okay, >> Colin. >> I'm Colin Sullivan. I am a Bitcoiner first. I'm an inventor. I'm an MBA. and I'm the co-founder and CEO of Mint Green. Uh Mint Green is a tech company with a focus on getting basically the highest temperature uh from Bitcoin miners in our proprietary products. So we do largely commercial and industrial deployments uh between 23,000 square ft to uh you know for for our digital boiler it's upwards of 3/4 of a million square feet. >> Uh hey everybody I'm Joseph Ma. I'm the co-founder of uh Superheat. What we do is that um we create systems where we turn uh silicon chips into interesting, you know, infrastructure and appliances. Uh namely, right now we're making a um a water heater, a residential water heater called the Super E1 that uses a Bitcoin miner as it heat core. It's fitting that this year the the the stage has been renamed from the mining stage to the energy stage. From the big guys, they did it because they're all AI companies now. But for us, it's actually fitting because all of our businesses aren't mining operations in the sense that we we control our systems to optimize for hash rate, so to speak. They're energy systems, be it heat, be it demand response, load balancing, etc. Colin, I want to jump right to you because I know that you've been thinking a lot about this from an energy perspective, not just offloading the heat, but how these can be used in energy systems specifically at the larger scale where you're plugging in. We were talking about hotels backstage, district energy. How are you thinking about this as an energy system? What does your product solve? >> Well, um I mean starting at the beginning here, I mean as far as the energy market, the energy industry, literally it waited 200 years for Bitcoin to be invented to become efficient. So you they were talking about stranded energy in the last panel, etc. But now it comes to heating. Well, heating is something like 55% of all energy use in the world. So, you know, burning an electron in a baseboard heater or an electric boiler, uh, standard electric boiler, I should say, it is the has way less utility than being able to use it for something like protecting the Bitcoin network. So, uh, we find that, you know, we're able to create energy markets uh that would be impossible to mine in otherwise. So, we're dealing with customers potentially in Europe whereby, you know, their energy price is not competitive for normal mining. Uh however, the gas price is also very high and so therefore there can be a savings and therefore it makes sense even though not technically profitable. Um so there's a whole bunch of markets that you can get into otherwise and it's it's very sticky. It's very good for Bitcoin's resiliency. Um because if people get cold when you're not running miners, that's a big problem. And if you can put them all all over the world, including Europe, in a sort of decentralized way, that really makes Bitcoin technology much more resilient. >> Jason, energy, electric heat. When did it click for you, your team, that wait a second, a Bitcoin miner is just an electric boiler for a bath house that also makes money? And and who did you have to convince along the way? Are you still having to convince people? Are there still people banging on the door in New York City saying, "Boogeyman, boogeyman, boogeyman, stop using all this mining." >> No, we got we actually got visited by uh Homeland Security out of the blue one day. My uh facility guys called me. Jason, Homeland Security is here. Uh you need to come downstairs. We got a panic. I go upstairs like, "Hey, I'm Jason. What's going on, guys? Oh, we want to see your Bitcoin miners. This is cool. How's this work?" So, uh we didn't have to convince anybody. People are very curious. We get a lot of questions. There's a lot of um uh interest in it. It's a very, you know, it's something that I'm passionate about and at the founder level we're passionate about it. We're both Bitcoiners. Um, and we care about as a business. It's a very small part of what we do, right? It's an appliance for us. Like we have a we have a huge tech stack for u all these facilities and this is a component. Um, you know, I was nodding along with Colin because he was saying, you know, there's certain areas where um it's very expensive for energy. Basically, you know, we're we're that place, right? Like the New York City is outrageously expensive. We we must buy energy obviously. Uh pretty large amounts of it. We're forest buyers from a monopoly, right? So we're going to buy energy at any price. You would never mind there otherwise. Um but you know, as I went on a journey and uh learning more and more about Bitcoin, going down that Bitcoin rabbit hole, s starting to look at the mining industry, uh why it's so important to Bitcoin, right? First, and then second going, "Oh my god, they are dumping heat. look at them dump all that heat. You know, they're trying to figure out how they can dump heat more efficiently. And I said, well, I need heat, you know. So, um, we started off like, okay, let's just test it on a really small scale. Let's drop one S19 into a small tank. Can we make hot water efficiently? Yes, we can. And >> so, you guys were doing the prototyping yourself, testing this out. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, then we went into, okay, let's heat a couple pools with it. Can we do that? Wow. We're actually using slightly less energy than we were with electric pool heaters, you know, because electric pool heaters they're kind of pigs and they're only they're on or off. They're on or off bind full on or full off. You know what we when you're doing immersion, you're actually building up a reservoir of heat, right? So almost like a thermal battery component. And we found we used slightly less energy, right? Uh than we did just using regular. So this is great, right? We're getting we're earning some Bitcoin, little bit of SAT streaming every day. It's like a rebate on our power, right? So then we kept kind of scaling it up. What else can we heat with it? Are there better versions? And you know, we've been iterating on it on the adventure. Joseph, tell the audience here a little bit more about your product and and why you tackled for your first product of many potentially from from Super Heat the the 50-gallon domestic hot water heater that you find in your utility closet at at a residential home. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh it it all started when I was uh like I built something out of my gaming PC cuz it was cold as hell in when I first moved to New York City. So, I just put the radiator right in front of my hands and that's how I started this idea. And then uh talked to my co-founders who has been in the mining space and then uh we just thought about where do people need heat most and uh it turns out like it's it's the water heater because no matter where you are, no matter what time it is, you're going to need hot showers, right? And um I think eventually we chose the residential model. We chose to go to like um a really uh distributed way is that uh electricity like transporting electricity is easy but transporting heat is hard. there's a lot of loss in transporting heat. So we went to we went in um the distributed way so that you know we can meet we can have the compute be where the heat demand is and that's why we decided to do the residential water heater. >> You're trying something different Colin with district energy and district heating. Correct. What challenges do arise when you try to tackle that problem versus putting a box that makes heat and Bitcoin in every individual home? >> There's a few challenges. I mean namely the impetus for the development of our technology was it is still de so that's why we're really pushing you know the highest temperatures possible. Uh presently our top end temperatures 145 185 F uh 85 C. Uh we're looking at also developing our own boards to push that even further. So like they don't they don't want us to have to step up or polish our heat. They want the heat to come out of the system and satisfy the needs that that they have for >> and district heating just happens to have high temperature >> thresholds. >> What they have is so these are low temp systems. They're not steam systems. You could also pair them with a steam system and maybe preheat the heat depending on how much they're able to recover on a condensate. Um but for like a low temp systems they can go from anywhere from like 65 to sorry I'm C again. Uh so 65 C to about uh 105 C. So they go from you know quite hot above microbial temperatures. I know I'm disappointed with the uh with a metric system >> uh to uh to slightly higher than boiling. So I mean for our technology the the holy grail is actually to to be able to create some level of steam or boil water with that every every degree we can go higher with stability opens up new technology pairings and new industries >> for you Jason the temperature is already warm enough right these are it's honest what what kind of challenges did you have to solve temperature perhaps not being one of them maybe it was um but what other shit went wrong >> yeah so one of big things with this is, you know, you have um you have base loads and peak loads, right? So there's sometimes where you need a lot more heat than other times. Uh and there's usually some kind of minimum base load. So what are you doing? Are you mining to your base load and then you know um using another source for peak? Are you mining to peak and then you have extra heat? How are you doing that? And so and how you thinking about that? So we try we kind of addressed it two different ways. So, the first thing we did is we uh said we want to do all the heat for the pools with um with Bitcoin mining and uh and the pools are fairly stable. So, it's kind of an easy target, but there's times we're like, okay, we need to dump and refill a pool, then you need a lot more. So, we scaled it to be able to to like dump all the pools, refill them in four hours, right? Go back to temperature. Uh, and then we also, uh, has a has a has a has a sink to it. We tied it into our domestic hot water heater, which I'm nodding along with Colin. We can dump to as a pre-warmer to like all the domestic hot water, right? It's the last stop on the train has the loop is coming back to the miners. And the third the third thing that we did that was very easy. We looked at thermal batteries, this kind of stuff. We just said okay we need some basic firmware where we can react the hash rate can react to the temperature in the return right so okay if it if it's 150 I want I want these uh five miners to go to half speed which lowers the heat if it's hotter and then um if it's low we want all of you to overclock and and that way we don't need to store right we don't need to have look for storage solutions um we don't need overmine and be dumping any extra heat just to be able to deal with peak. Uh but we can scale into any kind of peak demand. >> What he's describing here or go ahead Colin you just that's it. You're you're telling a bigger story here too which is really interesting because as you said like your pain point is energy price and you're helping that. So he's not going to have dry coolers. In fact when the energy price is high the use rate of the energy is going to be half like near 100%. uh you know we have customers whereby you know they can prof they can mine profitably anyways so they're like oh we'll build a little bigger we'll blow off some of the heat but it's actually more say like sustainable in more expensive environments >> yeah I want to make this clear so your your scenario is interesting Jason because you have a large business that uses a lot of heat so you've got some resolution with multiple miners right whereas Joseph's system perhaps doesn't have that right you don't have 10 miners inside of a 50-gallon tank u but but you bring up an interesting technical challenge which You don't want the dry cooler cuz you don't want to mine when you don't need the heat because you know this whole operation is a sunk cost anyways. It's not a profitable business endeavor. I'm turning on the machines as an energy system when I want heat. They happen to give me a rebate when I do that in some Bitcoin. You're not just going to dump excess. The um the bleeding heat, it's really like a copout to to not be able to control the miners. There's a couple products around. I've seen them. I have some at my office where they they're effectively digital boilers, but they come with a dry cooler and they sell it to you as a feature when really it exists because the controls not there to dial the throttle back on the machine to the exact heat output I want. And so it's been it's been challenging in some sense to communicate that it's like no, I'm not running a mining operation. I'm running an energy system and I I don't think of it. I'm not controlling for a certain hash rate. I'm controlling for a certain wattage perhaps or a certain outlet temperature. How are you solving this? Joseph, do you want to touch on some of the challenges you've had to face when you're dealing with only one or perhaps two smaller smaller number of miners in a smaller system overall? Yeah. So, um the problem is just as you described. So for example uh I'm going also going to use Celsius cuz uh you know Fahrenheit is confusing but u so when for example we set the target temperature to our water heers to 60C and um we have it restart again at 40C um because we can't do granular control of the of the power of the miners because it's either on or off. So we uh we have been tweaking with this uh when do we start restart it again so that you know we can somehow balance the mining output and the temperature of the water but it's still kind of hard and um what we decided to do was basically let the user decide when they want the miner to start again uh so they can based on how how hot of the water they need it needed to be uh to decide on the restart temperature. You looked like you had some thoughts, Colin. Did you want to chime in on this >> on what Joseph said there? Not that particularly that that makes sense. >> Like the controllability. I mean, has this been a problem for you with mint green as well? >> Um, you you certainly need controls. Well, our system is has a lot of stuff going on. So, like we have >> it's certainly bigger, more complicated. >> So, if you look at the miners themselves, they have discrete temperature sensors for each core. They have discrete temperature sensors for each board. we need to add them for each level of our system within each segment of the tank. And then essentially it's like now we're looking at what is the uh what is the return temperature for the heat exchanger, what's the supply temperature from the heat exchanger and then what's the flow rate. So we're trying to create a specific temperature for our customers which is largely driven by thermodynamics and fluid dynamics. So you're basically throttling a pump and sizing it correctly and sizing the piping correctly to get them the same amount of energy at a desired temperature. >> I see. But it's still just full bore with the miner when they're on and it's more of a mechanical problem to ch to solve for the temperature outlet you're targeting. You >> you want to size it on the front end generally, right? And again, it's it is up to the customer. So if if they're in a situation where they want to do more than say a base load of 30%, then you're going to have to look at alternatives to get rid of that. Otherwise, you know, we need to have ability to to remove some of that heat or again, we can throttle the system as well. >> I'm really glad the the base load versus peak load was brought up, Jason, because effectively what what I realized quickly when trying to heat homes and businesses with Dylan in the audience here with Bitcoin miners is heating systems are sized for peak load, the coldest day. It's like cover my ass, right? I don't want to not be warm when it's -20 at 2 am on December 25th or whatever it is. But if you size your system for your business or your home that way with Bitcoin miners, you buy 20 Bitcoin miners and 19 of them only run one day a year and it's a complete waste of money. And so do you believe that the future is these like hybrid setups or we just target base and then there's another another piece of equipment for peak load? What do you think Jason? If you were to design perhaps another bath house from scratch, how would you set it up? So uh so for for a residential unit, I think that you would do base load, you design for base load and then you'd have some last mile uh secondary energy thing to get you to the coldest day, right? Um for for us uh we uh are com because that's mostly also like the capex issue, right? So for a residential, just to your point, it's a capex thing. Like it's not that it's more complicated to design for peak, but why would you spend uh if you're a homeowner um like a middle-ass homeowner, why would you spend an extra 15k on mining equipment just to have it for that cold day, right? So So for for us, we're concerned being commercial operator, we're really concerned with stability, right? These pools need to be hot when we open them. We open in the morning at 8 am and the customers are coming in and they want hot pools, right? And so that's my job is to make sure that happens, right? Uh and I care a lot about that. So, so for us, we we overengineer all the time and we want to have like robust equipment. So we have a slightly different use case than like a home person would do. So we design for peak, but we don't run it at peak because we don't want to create waste, right? And then but we have that horsepower there and we don't mind making that capex. We're gonna appreciate it anyway. We don't mind making the capex investment to have that have that power. So, if it was my house though, I would um I would probably like get most of the way there, maybe have a little storage, like a hot water storage tank, and then have some inexpensive last last mile boost for like extreme uses or something like that. >> For your customers, Colin, how are you how are you sizing these systems? >> It it depends on a few things like so we kind of run two business models essentially. So if we can get a reasonable net price uh so basically we would have sort of an offtake agreement as they call it where we'd be selling the heat back to them uh we are generally going to be sizing for base load depending on the energy cost but the net energy cost is is what we negotiate in the deal. So if it makes sense for us to like so it it depends on the local energy cost and it depends on their amount of usage. uh for the on the other side, if the customer is going to own it, we're going to manage it. Uh it's entirely up to them how much uh they are going to utilize, if they're going to get above base load or even a peak load. Um we've been in conversations with uh the mayor of Vancouver, uh Ken Sim, who's a big supporter of uh of what we're doing here and Bitcoin in general. Um there's an outdoor pool. It takes a ton of heat. Um but the discussion is actually around peak load for this. They want to maintain the pool. They have it run, you know, almost the entire year in Canada. Now, Vancouver is not cold for Canada, but it's still cold. Um, but how it how it works is there's a uh there's a district energy system very near it. And so, in the shoulder season, we could tie into them and supply the city the heat, in which case it's actually more profitable for the end user than even heating their own pool. Because there is a value to lowcarbon heating in DE systems. uh that is, you know, in in in my in my uh jurisdiction, it's upwards of, you know, 12 cents a kilowatt hour for the heat itself. So, they're reselling your heat. There's going to be some margin on that. And that's also why, you know, productizing waste heat is kind of like a a pain point for us because it's not wasted. Waste heat is a massive data center that just happens to be somewhere and they're trying to scrape some heat off of it. It's very low value. If you're designing specifically for a system, it's high value. So, you know, it's important to defend that price. We feel >> well said. I'm glad you said that because all of us are building businesses specifically integrating Bitcoin mining into um their operations. Sizing, Joseph, I'm curious to to talk with us amongst here on stage and the audience about sizing for a water heater. Um you can already tell I'm getting confused thinking about it. Um because a water heater in my mind must be challenging because it's like a closed system, right? It's a 50-gallon tank. eventually you got to shut it off cuz it can't take any more heat and and does the minor start to struggle? What kind of challenges are you facing there? And and also like how do you size for that? Because if you have an insulated box and you're trying to heat it up, you could heat it up with a small heater or a big heater and it might just change how quickly it heats up, right? So this notion of a recovery time for a domestic hot water heater. Could you talk about that? >> Yeah, so uh first of all, we chose the uh 50 gallon because it's pretty much the most common size for for a residential unit. And then uh definitely there is challenges on how to manage the heat and how to make sure that it heats up um like at a at a normal rate and um I think the the biggest challenge was that when there is a lot of demand like like we've discussed here when there's peak demand um the minor only gets output so much heat and we don't want it to we want the users to have basically to have heat on demand. So what we did uh which is not good for a purist point of view but we have a electric coil in there that can assist which is optional uh for you to turn it on to to >> well I mean that's I think that ties into well what we were just talking about which is like your base load peak load right I mean and and perhaps for capex for a residential systems that's the best way to do it. Yeah, I mean I think Heit did something familiar with similar with the the Heit trio their system. Um I want to transition now from okay we talked about some of the technical challenges I've been teeing up for a long while a transition to a more open mining stack which I'll get to at the end but I want to talk a little bit now about the people challenges. Let's actually start back with you Joseph. Like what I found is that people don't buy their own hot water heater and plug it in themselves. there's an expert that they call, right? And so he needs to be familiar and aware with your system. How how have you guys tried to tackle that? >> Yeah. So, um I think one of the design philosophies that we have is to make a water heater first, not a minor first. And one of the challenges is like you said, people don't shop for their own water heaters. Like I've talked to people who don't really know where their water heater is in their house. So, uh we've we've been working with a lot of plumbers. We've been uh talking to a lot of MEP contractors to make sure that our unit installs like a regular water heater. So when the plumbers they get the get our unit, they look at a very simple manual, they know how to how to install it. There's no need to, you know, massively change up your plumbing, massively change electrics. So um I think that's the first thing to make it very easy to install. The other is maintenance, right? because um it's very easy for a regular water heater to change out the heating coil or something, but we need to change out a minor if something goes wrong. Um so we've also made that very simple. Uh you can see a picture on our website where there are four thumb screws. You take off, two quick disconnects and you take out the minor and you put in a new one. So uh that is what we designed and I think that is very important for like maintenance and installation. >> Any challenges you're facing in that domain Colin with your systems? I would say that that challenge is equal to the technical challenges we face to be honest. I mean it took us a few years to get the tech to get the technology to a level where it was you know rugged enough high enough temperature to suit our customers but then it's we need to have those sales tools that make sense and also you're dealing with disperate industries. I mean, we've had pharma come up to us. Obviously, we're talking about like heating pools and and and DE. Um, but each of these areas has a very specific set of concerns that they have. Um, so, you know, specifically, I think the industry in mining in general is not very good at uh projecting earnings. So we've kind of created a tool and we found it quite effective to just reduce it down to like a single number that gives you kind of a percentile of the health of the mining market. So I mean if you'll indulge me basically take a 200 week average of hash price and kind of scale it to how much the ASIC biners are improving over that time and you get sort of like a health score. So like right now we're like at 67th percentile. It's not great. So we say to our customers like you can expect some regression to this amount. This is what we see and maybe up here to make up for that in the future, but we got to give them a sort of an agnostic uh feel of where they are. Because if you go, oh, plus 50% minus 50%. If you're a boat in a harbor that's 3 ft from shore and you're modeling for being in the street doesn't really make sense, right? So, showing them that in a way that makes sense uh as well as understanding their discrete businesses and having partners in other businesses that are able to help you and and sort of sell your product uh to other groups like the pool industry has specific concerns as well and you know they have their own networks of selling heaters. So, we got to kind of work with those groups as well. >> So, this is like an internal metric you guys coined to help >> guide the store. >> Okay. >> And it's it's through the the sales process. Is it something to help them understand how it compares to an alternative or it's something to kind of monitor along the way as they're a part and user of your system? >> It's to in a fair and agnostic way predict how they may do relative to how the market has looked over a period of time. So it is disingenuous for me to to to show like a a a bad a bad amount of money they're going to be making. As much as you know we're in a bull market and I'm saying, "Okay, you're going to make gobs of cash." That's not realistic either. We give them sort of a thermometer on that go here's our expectations and we found that's been quite effective. Uh and we'll we'll put that on our website. We'll let you everyone use that. But I think it's very helpful in sort of smoothing those curves out and having people understand. >> Welcome to predict the world is a market. Everything is a market. Every headline moves the line. Every moment is your market. Call the moves. Bet on your instinct, your prediction, your edge. Dual bits. Predict where everything is a market. This is actually a very interesting topic and I want to tie Joseph in here because I'm curious, you know, when people ask like, well, how much money does this water heater make? So, I want to hear you chime in on that, but then I'm going to loop back to Jason about the people challenges with your system, right, and solving it yourself. Um, but first with Joseph, yeah, like how do you describe the economics? How how are you marketing this, right? I saw you guys had an awesome launch. There was a CES award if I'm correct. Um, what kind of questions do you keep having to answer? >> Yeah. So, I think um like two questions mainly basically the first one is how much can I earn? Like what's the return on investment? And uh to answer that we basically created like a little calculator on our website where it models the current you know um the current the network hash rate and our own device hash rate and basically do a rough calculation for that uh based on their location their electricity price. They can even put in their own electricity price and the bitcoin price that they want to put in or we're going to use the default uh the current bitcoin price. So they have a rough understanding of how much uh they'll earn with per unit per year. And the other question that I got get a lot is um what happens when Bitcoin drops like doesn't this affect my earnings? And I think that question is um harder to answer for a lot of because when you're facing a lot of uh non- Bitcoin people and I think the answer to that is um because we are using uh we because we treat heat as the product. So the Bitcoin just becomes what I call a happy byproduct. It's a net plus. It's a upside. So even when Bitcoin goes to zero, that just means you get zero upside, but you're still using the same electricity to produce the same amount of heat. So, uh, volatility doesn't really matter to us that much. >> Yeah, just tangent. I mean, what we're effectively describing is we solve the security budget, um, for Bitcoin mining because I'll mine at 0 hash price. Uh, but back to Jason on on the people challenges. I'm sure you faced quite a lot. I'm sure you became friends with your plumber like you were telling me. um and your maintenance guys. You got a full-time operation. I mean, it's a real business. You got guys on staff. What kind of challenges did you guys have to overcome, learn, tackle together? And then I'm curious, if you were to spin up another bath house, also heated by hash rate, what kind of stuff do you have to like distill down and then teach another facilities guy at a new place? >> Yeah, it's a great question. Um, you know, we use really great engineers and for some reason this turns them into chimpanzees every time. And I'm like, "You don't need to curl up in the fetal position, guys. We could do this." You know, and they're like I'm like, "It's a hot water heater. It's got a cold water in and a hot water out, and it needs electricity going to it, and we'll do the rest." Uh, but but they're like, "But how many do we like?" They they really have a hard time going hash rate into heat output. Uh, and it mystifies them and it makes them want to pull the cover over their head and cry like little babies. Uh, my plumber on the other hand, he's like, "Yeah, you know what? Let's look at this loop. We don't need this. Get that out of here. Get this this, you know, we're going to save 10%. Get get this pump out of here." And we we so I I I hold the engineers hands and I love them. I don't mean to disc, you know, but they struggle with it a little bit because they want to they want to pick an appliance. >> It's analysis paralysis. >> Yes. And they want to get a cut sheet. Yeah. >> Right. And they want to they want this is what we're doing. Um and uh and so there and u now we have to translate hash power into the peak load of a pool right and we have thinking about this stuff and I'm always telling people it's not complicated it's a hot water heater there's a delta t we can do this and my plumbers like this is cool let's see if we can make it simpler we'll save 10 grand if we take this elbow out you know and that kind of thing so usually what I do I I hold their hands we get through it together and then my plumber takes it rips the plans apart and we build. >> Gentlemen, we only got a couple minutes left here. I want to I want to close out by offering you each a chance to describe perhaps for some mining stack builders in the audience or anyone curious or any supplier, manufacturer, anyone watching online, what would what would solve a big problem for your business in the realm of hash rate heating? What would what would be helpful to you if you could just do this one thing? If that was solved, if someone figured that out. Let's let's start with Jason, then work our way down. if there was one solve. Uh so autotuning autotuning hydros would be great. Anything we can do to plug and play the equipment uh is amazing. Also anything that pushes deltat t like the highest safe you know temperature that you could have on the outlet of the uh miners. So you know like what's minor saying we could get to maybe 170. We found that we start getting failure above 150. We want to push that. The farther we push that, the more efficient we are and the more we can run up it. So those those two things um and there might be solutions out there already for it that we're not aware of or are coming down the pipeline now that there's a lot of new um open source firmware coming out. So those those are the two big things for for me, right? Autotuning. So temperature goes up, hash goes down, that happens automatically. >> You mean you don't drive your car by going full throttle, full brake? That's basically what's happening, right? Uh and then the uh >> they do it in New York, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. In New York. Yes. You have to. You have to. Somebody's jumping out all the time. So, you just get used to it. >> Colin, what about you? >> Uh on the technical side, I mean, again, we're trying to push very high temperatures. We are starting the process of developing our own boards and getting cores to do that. So, that's that's a challenge we're working on. Although, I would say that there's tons of there's tons of fit for us at our current temperature. um you know being truly a heating company that's using Bitcoin it would be nice if you know credit facilities and banks would treat you as such right so if we're trying to do these offtake agreements it can be very challenging to get them financed even though you know we have the numbers for them uh you know our bank won't even give us a credit card so it usually has to be you know uh some kind of mezzdet or etc which can work because the models make sense but you're you're kind of squeezing your customer a bit on Yeah, Joseph, any quick last thoughts of what would help solve problems for your product? >> Yes. So, first of all, open source uh firmware to help control the systems better and I think the second is um we can work with building codes and stuff like that to make sure that you know when people install these they're not going to get you know insurance problems >> being being taken seriously. Yeah, gentlemen. I agree. An open source mining stack is something I'm hugely a part of. I got to give a quick shout out to the 256 Foundation, which actually just won $100,000 from the MEA Foundation 30 minutes ago. Um, and they're building an open source firmware pool, hashboard reference design, and control board reference design that ultimately should make all of these products and business models much more successful and easier to to manifest. But thank you all very much. It's been an honor to be up here with these gentlemen. And find us backstage if you want to continue the conversation. Thank you. >> Thanks everybody. Thank you guys. >> Thank you. Every year this community comes together to celebrate, to debate, to build what comes next. And every year the stage gets bigger. Sound money center stage. So, where do you go to celebrate the next chapter in Bitcoin history? You come home. Nashville, July 2027.