Allocating Scarce Assets: Energy Compute & Bitcoin | Bitcoin 2026

Yeah, good morning everyone. Uh my name is uh Anthony Power. I'm the CEO of Power Analysis. Um I'd like to welcome a strong panel to the stage today. Uh starting with Rory. If you can introduce yourself and then move on to Matt and Salmon. >> Yeah. Hi. Thank you. Uh great great to be here and uh thanks to all the host and and Anthony for for moderating. I'm uh Rory Murray. I'm the vice president of digital asset management at CleanSpark. We're a um energy infrastructure company and um compute company. Sometimes we turn that uh that compute into Bitcoin and increasingly we're expanding into the AIHBC market. I lead our digital asset treasury management function which essentially just means Bitcoin treasury, anything that touches that, manage the custodial relationships, uh our spot sales, our spot sales program, run a derivatives overlay and deal with kind of anything Bitcoin credit uh and Bitcoin back lending related. >> Thanks for uh paying for everything, Rory. All the seats and everything. >> You're you're actually very welcome. We have Does anyone else feel like they need sunglasses up here? Um, hello everyone. My name is Matt Williams. I'm the head of financial services at Luxer. Um, Luxer is a energy infrastructure company for miners and data centers in general. Um, I run our mining pool, our energy business, and our derivatives function. Um, more recently we've been focused on helping miners expand into um either growing their mining operations or expanding into AI HBC as well. >> Very good. Well, looks like there's a fan following for sure. Um, Salman Khan sponsor the stage. >> There you go. That helps, right? >> Salman Khan, chief financial officer for Mara Holdings. Mara is um a digital infrastructure company and uh one of the largest Bitcoin miners. We've got global operations. We operate in multiple countries and u we are at the intersection of owning 2 G gawatt capacity as at one of the lowest uh uh price per megawatt hour and um and uh we're in the transition space from Bitcoin mining to HPC while we also hold a significant amount of Bitcoin on our balance sheet. Very excited to be here today. Thank you everyone. So topic for today is allocating scarce assets, energy, compute, and Bitcoin. And we've got three companies here that know all about that topic. So to start us off, Rory, um what is the scarcest asset in terms of mining today? Is it the capital? Is it energy? Or is it the compute capacity? >> I mean, I think the scarcest asset is is just very clearly still uh land and power and and and specifically power. um you know it's obviously the the land around it is is always a concern but um getting getting uh access to that power. I mean, you know, we we have these conversations all the time, and I I can't profess to be kind of, you know, that's that's not kind of my main kind of mandate on a daily day-to-day basis, but obviously we're all kind of hands all hands um you know, on on deck right now with it. And it's and it's core to what we do. And so we we have these conversations constantly and it's, you know, oh, is is is there is it is it tapering off? Is it real? Is it durable? Is it sustainable? It is relentless. It is truly relentless from all corners. It is global. It is domestic. It is small, medium, and large. It is, you know, hyperscaler on down. It is one of the most awesome and I use that kind of in the classic sense of the word and truly awesome things I've ever experienced and seen. Feel very fortunate to be a part of the ride. I always wanted to be um a part of a big global movement that helped kind of create better lives for all the stakeholders that are involved and I think that this is a a vehicle and an opportunity to do that both for the American domestic economy but all the stakeholders that are a part of that. >> Matt, from your from your position as sort of like watching in this space, what are you seeing yourself? >> Yeah, I mean I echo what Rory's saying. Um, if you walk around here and you're talking to miners or well really anyone in the data center space and you ask them what they're working on, it's finding sites. Um, you know, I'm looking at Urkott, I'm looking at SP. It's just it's just a land grab, right? And people are looking at Greenfield, brownfield, turnkey, um, just whatever. Like it's just people are paying um, crazy dollars for megawws. And it's interesting to me like when I first started at Luxer four years ago, you know, people are looking at sites that are, you know, just a couple megawatts. You got to 10 megawatts and that's a big site and then all of a sudden it's like 100 megawws. People are talking about gigawatt sites and we've kind of come back now to where we're seeing people will just take anything even if it's for AI HBC. So it's like 20 30 40 50 megawatts are still very interesting. And so yeah, like we um we never really intended to get into the sites business at Luxer, but we just constantly getting asked, "Hey, do you know anyone selling?" Or, "Hey, I have this site. Can you help me sell it?" So, yeah, I totally echo what he's saying. It's just crazy. >> Yeah. Now, before you answer, Salman, I I was uh fortunate to go to my first conference in London about just over four years ago, and the very first person in the industry I met was your boss, Fred. And um we had a great conversation about the strategy that Mari were you doing at the time and actually the theory of that strategy um you know found to be you know workable strategy the asset light strategy put all your money into mining machines through a hosted business model but that seems to have changed now and you've managed to sort of like start buying your own site and with that um understanding that potentially you're going to two gigawatts. Can you can you say are you on the same lines as as our two previous speakers in terms of power being that sort of that definitive asset to try and achieve? >> We we've said this for a long time now. Electrons are the new oil and uh they're scarce. They're pocketed in different locations. Uh they're strategic. They're political in nature. And um as as as the rest of the group talked about, it's important to have low power cost energized yesterday. People don't want to wait for interconnect studies and wait for three, four, five years for this energy to be available. Uh look, we we stopped asking ourselves the question whether we should mine bitcoin or whether we should do HPC. The bigger question is how can we acquire as much electrons as we can in in locations where which are more attractive for us and that could be used to monetize and create value for our stockholders. So to answer your question, yes, absolutely. MARA went through its own evolution of asset light. We became one of the largest Bitcoin miners as a result of that strategy. But we did not stop there. We went out and started buying low power cost, which is one of the lowest in the sector. 4 cents per kilowatt hour at 2 gawatt capacity. U 70% owned and operated. And um and that did not happen in a vacuum. Uh last having we were able to acquire more than a gigawatt capacity. Um and that capacity if you had built yourself would have costed you 60% more than uh than what we paid 40% uh of the build multiple to acquire that that so acquisition model has worked out very well for us and from here it's it's an it's an evolving industry you know Bitcoin mining taught us a lot of lessons across the board how to operate how to be scrappy how to uh minimize your costs And that's going to be important on HPC space because right now people are throwing money at at sites but there will come a time where operating costs are going to be important and owning and operating lowest cost operations that could be useful on a cost per token basis as it used to be cost per cost per h pahash it's going to be important going forward >> and and that's a great segue so we'll start with you Sam and then we'll move to to Rory but I suppose in in today's um uh business model for for all three of you. Are we seeing now energy becoming more valuable than Bitcoin itself? >> Well, yes and no. So, Bitcoin has its own unique characteristic. It's limited in supply. It's the rate of returns that you've seen with it. But in order to get to Bitcoin, you need to have energy as a minor. Uh unless you're a DAT, it's a different story. If you raise capital and buy bit Bitcoin from that, that's a completely different strategy. As we have said before many times, MARA is not a DAT. We are an operator. We like to buy electrons, operate them, produce Bitcoin, hold on to balance sheet as an investment and monetize at the right time for the right opportunities. But look, this Bitcoin just keeps us giving us great rate of returns over a long period of time. Uh so it's an asset class that has its own unique position. With energy assets, what you get is an option value to either produce Bitcoin at a lower cost than what you could buy it in the market depending on the market conditions while also it gives you four to five times better ebidom versus Bitcoin mining in today's price. So that that energy at the core of our economic triad as we call it, those electrons and megawatts are really important to secure and and be available to either mine bitcoin. We like mining bitcoin. We are still close to 70x aash and uh we like to mine bitcoin in different price environments. If that gives us that option value, but then that upside on the HPC is icing on the cake for our stockholders. Yeah, I mean I would I would gently push back on the framing a little bit which is I don't think it's a either or. I think it's a both end and I think it's both it's a both and and and you know I always I go back to two months ago when we were sitting in the basement of this very same hotel resort and casino having our executive leadership um retreat and we were at a you know a critical point in the evolution of this entire space and so while I absolutely love my job I've been an OG Bitcoiner for over a decade and I think that it's the you know the greatest global emerging monetary alternative that we've ever seen. I really wanted to challenge our team to define why it is that and and you know to step back a minute. We've been very clear that we are maintaining our commitment to Bitcoin and will continue to do that and that starts with our CEO Matt Schultz goes to our president and and CFO Gary Vearelli and it goes down kind of percolates down throughout the entire team. But I really wanted to take that moment to challenge us to say, hey, yes, we are committed to Bitcoin, but why? Right? And for us, I think the answer that we came to as a group was, what does that unlock? Well, one, it's been our traditional access to land and power now for a long time. So that's how we started. Well, we started as a distributed energy company, basically turning Beetle Dong into power for the US military, but that's a whole another story. But it's been our DNA for a long time now, about five or six years. That's access to land and power. We have 13,523 Bitcoin on the balance sheet, but who's counting? And we also have over 300,000 ASIC machines and 1.8 gawatts of power under under contract. So, what Bitcoin does is one, if you're just holding assets on your balance sheet or USD, you're not really not you're generally not going to hold a billion dollars of of of USD on your balance sheet, at least relative to your other kind of capital stack. So Bitcoin you're able to hold that because one it's upside optionality. So you know we believe that you know tomorrow the next day who knows where Bitcoin price is going to be but we believe in a global you know in a technological adoption curve over time we think numbers going to go up and with over a reasonable period of time over time. So it's upside optionality. The second is you can borrow against it. So you can finance these high ROE and ROIC um projects with let's be honest dirty depreciating fiat. You can hold you can do that by putting a appreciating uh currency to collateralize that maintain the upside optionality in that in that collateral in that in upside um that currency and then finance these high RIC projects. So you've upside optionality you can fund high ROIC projects and continue expansion. And then the last piece is I really do believe you know in in what sailor said which is volatility is vitality. Bitcoin does not have an organic interest rate, but and and there's no free lunch in the market. There's no riskless yield. But that being said, if you can marry the spot, the production of the Bitcoin into um into um optimizing the total return you can get on that Bitcoin by optimizing your uh your your you're you're turning it into because we still do have to pay salaries, insurance, rent, all that kind of stuff in USD. If you can optimize that and get a little bit more margin out of that, this is a game of inches. And that additional margin is such a massively compounding asset to your competitors over time that taking the Bitcoin, holding the optionality on the balance sheet, funding your business with it, and then optimizing a little bit more margin out of that across the Bitcoin and AIHPC stack allows you to have a competitive advantage that we think that our our some of our competitors are being a little bit shortsighted and nearsighted by by um letting letting that incredible asset go a little bit too early. I think Rory just answered the next 10 questions. I don't even I don't even know what to say. >> Have a rest, Rory. >> Um I'm going to take it back a few steps. I do agree I'm going to want to come back to some of the points you made, but um taking it back to your original question. I think what's been interesting from my viewpoint um you know going back four years ago again my introduction to the mining community is you know everyone's very passionate about mining um they were miners were really they've they've evolved the energy landscape quite a bit in Urkot um kind of by necessity right like with hash price declining you have to be much more cognizant of energy prices and how you lower your dollars per megawatt hour and and miners have been really good about that right and like having flexible load has been really uh an interesting thing to watch from my perspective. Um but you know in the early days it was you know everyone's talking about Bitcoin and all the great things that Bitcoin does and we're mining um you know to be a participant in that and there are people that have stayed true to it you know to the people on the stage have stayed true to that thesis but what I've seen and you know from a slightly cynical viewpoint is people really it's not about you know for some people it's not about Bitcoin it's how many dollars per megawatt hour you can get and is that Bitcoin or is that AIHPC and you know what we're seeing in reality is that it's much, you know, the dollars per megawatt hour is much more for AIHBC. It's like multiples more. >> Yeah. It's it's a much more predictable model because as I said before, um I can't tell you the Bitcoin price in 2 minutes time, never mind tomorrow, never mind next month, never mind next year. That's the volatility. That's the that's the type of asset class it is. All I do expect is that is I've never sold any Satoshi's yet. And I hope that the the the sort of line uh that it's been traveling over the last 15 years continues to travel over the next 15 years through to my retirement. But I the reason I asked that question is is that we've got um CleanSpark and Mar and the panel. If we go back two years ago before we saw some of these companies transition into that space, these by market capitalization were the two biggest companies out there and they were considerably bigger than the rest of the pack. Since we've seen the announcement of power going towards HPC, the market has determined that the power assets are more valuable effectively than Bitcoin. And you now see a string of companies with effectively signed contracts at the sort of like the top end of the market capitalization scale. Um so that was a reason sort of pull that question across uh for you Matt to start on this one. Um and knowing what we spoke about already, are miners becoming energy companies, compute providers, are they still effectively Bitcoin mining companies still? >> Well, I mean, if you talk to 10 different mining companies, you're going to get 10 different answers. So, like grouping them together is pretty tough challenge in my opinion. Some people have stayed true to being, you know, using energy, turning electrons into Bitcoin, and some are just I'll whatever the dollars, you know, that I can get for those electrons. So, I think it's a pretty wide mix of um of miners, but I think what's interesting to me um is how luck how lucky the miners have gotten. I mean, they were, you know, really smart. >> That's the first time I've heard that. >> Well, no, I mean, if you think about it, not from like a mining perspect, but you know, it was a suffer fest to be a minor for a long time, right? >> Yeah. No kidding. >> And then and then you you're doing all these creative things. you're you're expanding into these massive data centers and you're doing really smart things with energy and you're lowering your power costs and out of nowhere this massive demand for AI HBC just explodes and you're sitting on these massive assets that everybody wants and so now you got you know Google and Amazon and all these like hypers scales banging on your door and saying I'll give you these long off takes at like massive premiums and it's just like right place right time you know um and now you miners have this really great opportunity to Hey, all right. What am I going to do with these great these great energy assets? Am I going to, you know, go straight into AIHBC? Am I going to stick with Bitcoin mining? I'm going to do a hybrid approach, which personally I think is the best way to go. Um, but it's just a, you know, they're in a good position. And you're right, like it's been a suffer fest. They haven't been lucky, but I think they are now. It >> it's it's not lucky. And look, I I talked earlier, so I want to kick it back to Son in a second, but I I just quickly want to address that, which is that no, we didn't get lucky. We were willing to take a stance that was unbelievably contrarian at a time when everybody from the, you know, every political entity, every local entity, every person in your family was standing against you. At least at Queens Park, we bet on America. We owned domestic assets. We stayed local despite the the the kind of antagonism of the environment. We stuck it out. We showed ingenuity. We hired locally. We invested in local communities. And we cut, you know, we and we we toughed it out and ate ramen for five plus years when nobody else believed in what we were doing. So, no, I just don't think we got lucky. I think we made a bet on ourselves and we made a bet on America and we saw that through. >> I did not mean to offend you with the luck part. I agree with everything you said. You guys have been and the mining community has been amazing and the ingenuity and the ramen eating has been amazing and you're right like luck might >> the luck I meant is the demand that's coming from AIHPC and like your ability to be in the right place at the right time because of the hard work that you put into it. >> Sure. You know I love you. >> So so there there there are a couple of realities to think about. We we're at the Bitcoin conference. We all love Bitcoin, right? There's a reason we all are here. uh we happen to be Bitcoin miners and we all of us hold Bitcoin on our balance sheet. Mara holds a pretty significant chunk of Bitcoin on our balance sheet. The challenges have been the institutional adoption that we all thought would happen over the years these years. Instead, Bitcoin miners and investors are forcing these miners, all of us, to look at alternative use of the electrons as Matt you mentioned. And despite our personal beliefs and love around Bitcoin, the challenges with the the market not giving that credit for growing hash rate because of the global hash rate is continuing to grow and making it more difficult for the luck factor. talking about the luck um and and the same electrons are way more valuable on the HPC side. So talking about luck obviously majority of the bitcoin miners wanted to be bitcoin miners they we all grew to be bitcoin miners but there is alternative use of those electrons that is way more valuable today the market is giving more value to it and I hate to say that that's the reality yeah >> and and and we've got on the stage I mean effectively clean spark and mara were I'm going to say that the last of the true blue bitcoin miners out there because the majority of the 30 plus public miners had started to make that decision a while ago and you've both got two of the largest hash rates out there operationally very good. The question now is Rory if you had today the ability to grow one more exahash where is that exash going to be directed to? Is it going to be directed to Bitcoin mining or is it going to be directed to high performance compute? >> Yes. No. And let me address that right which is that one these are not loads that fundamentally compete with each other right so particularly right now when when when training is at least right now there's a a a global race for training we can talk about inference and inference at the edge and kind of what that's all going to look like and open source models and Mac minis and all of that kind of stuff right but right now what you're looking for are you know 250 megawatt plus kind of top level kind of name plate capacity sites if not larger about a 100 miles outside of an NFL city that can be turned into these large campuses, right? That's where kind of the AI side is is most focused at the moment. You know, there's other stuff people are kind of picking up sites, but that's kind of the the the let's call it the the the large kind of bulk of demand with Bitcoin mining. It has always existed at the edges. It's existed in places where the transmission has not been fully built out, where there's been overbuilding locally and there was gonna, you know, the the classic example is they were going to build a hospital. You know, it was told to the local county um that they were they were going to get this big kind of, you know, let's call it what it is, pork barrel spending. They're going to part of that's going to come into this hospital. The utility goes out there and they get they get um uh they get approval to to build the hospital. in order to build a hospital. They then start the the utility starts on the transformers. Turns out that that ends up getting moved one district over because XY Z senator scratched XY other Zed senator's back. And now suddenly the rate payer is left paying this higher base for this overbuilt capacity. And that's where Bitcoin mining has thrived. And so for us, look, we are monetizing megawws intelligently. So we have sites that have great profiles for AIHBC and we're seeing a lot of demand for that. We have sites that I think are going to be continued to be great sites for for for Bitcoin mining. You know, we have Duncan Poe who runs our who runs our kind of energy um you know kind of energy acquisition um project and he's getting things you he's looking at 1 gawatt kind of megawatt campuses. He's looking at 25 megawatt kind of bolt-ons that are out in the middle of nowhere. And I think what you're going to see is you're going to see again once again Bitcoin mining is going to find its way into the crevices and the holes of all the kind of little ways that it soaks up power while these other assets that we've been sitting on are just as valuable for these other things. So you again I'm not here to be a shield for Clean Spark. I happen to really believe in the mission. I think we have a we're we're incredibly well positioned but I don't think we're the only ones. Mar's very well positioned and a lot of our quite frankly other others in the space are as well. So, couple of things to think about. Uh, from an investor perspective, none of the Bitcoin miners have experience of transitioning into AI and HPC. And I say that respectfully. Uh, there are people who have more experience than others. There are gaps. Tier 1 data centers are very different than tier three and tier four data centers. We're an Apple and we're all trying to become an orange and it takes multiple steps to get there. And uh and and the way Mara has addressed this, we've done our own SWAT analysis, looked inwards instead of looking at others and uh be hard on ourselves and see what are our strengths and weaknesses. MARA has been extremely well in acquiring lowcost power and integrating that in operations and and operating um tier tier one data centers in very attractive locations and large scale sites. These are 100 to 300 megawatt sites. What Bitcoin miners don't have the experiences dealing with customers. We don't have a customer. Our customer is arguably the network or we produce Bitcoin, hold it on the balance sheet or sell it depending on the market conditions. We don't know how to deal with big tech customers like HPC space operates. We miners don't have the experience of building tier 3 and tier 4 data centers. Then miners also don't have the experience of delivering EPC contracts on a timely basis. These contracts are very one-sided because big tech knows how to keep you in the loop, right? Keep you in a in a box. And um and I'm just outlining things that are public information. I mean, you look at any contracts, these are tough contracts to negotiate and tough contracts to comply with. And Bitcoin miners have zero experience going through this exercise. So Mara the way we address this we were very clear since the bing out of times we like HPC we like the cash flow model but we have gaps as any other minor and we have addressed that by entering into a partnership with Starwood now many people don't know Starwood already has operating capacity of 7 to 8 gawatt capacity of HPC with existing customer relationships with Google Amazon and big four uh investment grade counterparties They have an EPC company. They know how to execute. So we're not talking wishful things that we will acquire something. We have more than 1 gawatt capacity that we've already identified that is HPC attractive for HPC that can be expanded to 2 and a half gawatt. Everything lined up. It's just a matter of time. it Starwood has the capital u commitments and the requirements that are taken care of that that reduces Mara's delution and Mara's in requirement to invest in these projects. So we're very pleased with the stepbystep approach. Some people may call it a conservative approach, but from our perspective, we are taking one step at a time and making sure that it's more predictable and it is more achievable and it it we we go there with a step-by-step process. >> Yeah, I mean Salmon and Rory made some really good points there. Um, I've worked on some really big contracts as a qualified accountant in the UK, and it's great when you announce these contracts. What I'm waiting to see in 12 months or 18 months time is the is the output of those contracts in terms of they will have a payment mechanism for delivery. And it's great that the transparency we're seeing from all the public miners who've signed contracts, these 105 billion dollar deals over a period of time, what's the real revenues? Are they going to be as close to 75 80% um net operating income or once the penalties start factoring in could that be you know a challenge to some of their some of their profit? >> The penalties can be huge and in our contract the penalties reside with Starwood not us. >> Um so so from from Matt's perspective uh looks obviously started the journey in the Bitcoin mining space but you now have moved you know significant products into HPC. What are you seeing from your business? What's what's growing quicker? Is it is it is it HPC or is the Bitcoin uh parts of the industry still growing as quick as it was? >> Well, I mean HPC is growing way quicker. I there's no doubt about that's an easy question, but um yeah, so for us, you know, like our network and our customers are miners and as our customers are transitioning into AIHBC um or diversifying into it, we want to be part of that story, too. So um you know Luxer does a lot of things for miners. We we sell hardware, we operate the pool. Um we do financing. Um I run the derivatives desk. Um not all that translates into the AIHPC world, but we um we are starting to do GPU brokerage. So we're selling GPUs to miners. Um we're actually helping um miners or sorry AI data centers with offtakes as well. And then um we're exploring doing compute derivatives as well um similar to the hash rate derivatives um that we built. So for us it's like we want to evolve with our customers and our friends in the space and um we think that's pretty much our best way of uh participating. >> Welcome to predict the world is a market. Everything is a market. Every headline moves the line. Every moment is your market. Call the moves. Bet on your instinct, your prediction, your edge. Dual bits. Predict where everything is a market. Now, we'll come on to the topic of um of Bitcoin itself in terms of as a treasury um asset. and throughout 2021 all the way through to 2025, we've got two companies on here that were able to grow their huddle uh continuously through that period. I mean, CleanSpark, I mean, you sold at the highs in 2021, then you started to rebuild that huddle at the lows and had a really good uh you know, uh strategy in place there for delivering the value. Mara just literally saved every bitcoin for a number of years and grew. if you discount strategy which is in a probably in a in a whole position on their own there. Mara held that second spot for a long long time until very recently. You've started to utilize some of that Bitcoin now. Um what what's your view now and determine um as to whether you're going to uh huddle Bitcoin or utilize Bitcoin? Um what's what's the decision-m process like in the company? What do you do to make that final decision? >> Look, it's a capital allocation decision. uh Bitcoin has been returning amazing rate of returns depending on the period of time that you pick up and um we have built that over longer duration of time. Most of it has been mined and then there has been some that we've acquired and um recently we sold some to to do balance sheet management. uh as as a public corporation, we we love Bitcoin, but also we have a fiduciary responsibility to our stockholders. And uh this we saw this opportunity of buying back bonds at a discount that if you factor in gave us uh Bitcoin uh average price of $80,000 per coin uh that we sold that at. And remember we the mining operations before having we were mining Bitcoin at $25,000 per coin. So when when you think about this, it's it's a capital source that has been giving us amazing rate of returns as a capital allocator. It's it's a good problem to have because now you can look at what are the other investments that MARA has to make and what is the source of capital available to us. For example, HBC 80% typically is funded through debt financing. There's ample amount of capital available there. In our partnership with Starwood, if I take an example of 300 megawatt capacity site that we drop into that partnership when they win the customer, we we get a value attributed. Let's say in this example, we get a valuation of three 3 250 to $350 million depending on the site as a credit in the partnership. Then we also spend pre-development dollars into it. Let's say $50 million. So, so our exposure is cashwise is fairly low. Starwood has to catch up to our partnership to earn that 50%. And in order to maintain that 50% in this example, we have to spend probably $50 million more. So, from a dilution standpoint, it's it's an amazing rate of return. and the exit opportunities is multiples ahead uh versus what we could create value with bitcoin mining or holding on onto the balance sheet as bitcoin depending on the scenarios. So in this case, we don't have to sell our Bitcoin to do this. But if if there are opportunities where there is um a rate of return better than Bitcoin uh that we've seen historically, we will be compelled to look into that. But as of now, Bitcoin, we continue to hold proudly the Bitcoin on our balance sheet. And um we we intend to use that for capital appreciation. uh while we're waiting for the alpha and beta, we want to have both of them. We want the price appreciation, but also we'd like to see some yield generation around that. And quickly to touch on that, with this massive amount of Bitcoin on the balance sheet, when you have smaller amount of Bitcoin, you can create a yield by taking the risk. The risk is real. When you look at counterparty risk and we have to be careful when we give the bitcoin to a counterparty we expect that to get it back at some point in time when we want it back uh when you want to create a yield and and that's where the market hasn't matured enough where you can say that hey mara with this massive amount of bitcoin or micro strategy or clean spark we can lend out bitcoin to somebody and expect to get that back because there are no investment grade counterparties majority of the counterparties are non-investment grade. Uh the rating agencies haven't caught up except for one or two. So it's it's it's a problem that that exists consistently and we will continue to challenge our decisions. But so far, yes. Matt, from your perspective, what are looks are providing in the space in terms of helping some of these companies manage that Bitcoin? Are there any sort of like uh financial uh techniques that you're applying there? Yeah, there's two things that I'll just piggyback onto your comment because we have a yield instrument. So, we we go out and talk to miners and we say, "Hey, if you um you want to give us Bitcoin, we'll lend it to other miners, but those miners will buy machines or uh infrastructure." They'll put hash rate on our pool and then pay back the lender through the pool on a daily basis. So, we do have a um what I like to call it a native yield instrument. I think it's the only one that exists. Um, and we're doing massive size on these two. Um, I do want to before we run out of time, I want to give Rory credit because I know he's doing a lot of work on the treasury management side of things. And from my perspective over the last four years, it was something that was sorely lacking amongst miners was like, you know, effective treasury management and not just sitting on a huddle and doing nothing with it, but actually putting it to work either through, you know, using it as a collateral to for a loan or, you know, getting yield or trading options on it or whatever. But um I know CleanSpark's doing a lot of work there and it's exciting. I know Mera does too. So I'm excited to see the space finally evolve. Um not everyone's doing it. It's still, you know, there's still quite a few miners that are I think being a little bit irresponsible with their huddle, but these two definitely are and I'm excited to see that. So um for me, like the evolution of that, it's been great to watch. >> Thanks. Yeah, I I I appreciate that. And and look, I said it to you backstage someone, we've been very, you know, we are are our are, you know, very big um you know, we very much appreciate um that I think our two firms are the ones that I think have blazed the most trail kind of in in this way. You know, we have our own we have our own um take on it and we think that we're we do believe that we're continue to be at the tip of the spear on this and we continue to evolve it in in in different ways. But I would address kind of the original question is say we are always laser focused 100% on diligent rigorous capital stewardship optimization and efficiency and one thing is we've evolved our stance. Yes they green spark and I can take no credit for it was unbelievable about selling towards the top of the last cycle and starting to re kind of rehydrate that huddle towards the bottom of this one. when I came on, what we t what we talked about was how do we take that contrarian um that contrarian kind of um way to approach things that's in our DNA and systematize it onto our onto our onto our balance sheet. So, we do a whole bunch of different stuff. Um I think you're going to see more variability in the huddle over time because as we as the options um uh as the options strategies become more varied, there's going to be little ups and downs here and there. um you're going to see different different um different instruments have different kind of effects, but the overall is we're committed to Bitcoin. Um but, you know, to the degree that we can use it to ultimately drive more funding to the the highest RAIC projects and um and more shareholder value and more capital assets, we're going to we're, you know, we're going to go wherever wherever the returns are are highest. This conversation could have probably carried on for another two hours. I don't think I got through half the questions, but I'm hoping that you all gained a little bit of understanding from a great panel in front of me, and I appreciate you. Show some appreciation for the other three speakers. Thank you. >> Every year, this community comes together to celebrate, to debate, to build what comes next. And every year the stage gets bigger. Sound money center stage. So where do you go to celebrate the next chapter in Bitcoin history? You come home. Nashville. July 2027.