Mise à niveau des portefeuilles pour les utilisateurs de maintenant à 2140 | Bitcoin 2026

Hello. Hello. Thanks for coming today. Uh appreciate you guys being here. And uh obviously our topic today is upgrading hard wallets. Uh kind of 100 years into the future, 120 years in the future. And uh today we have Roy, Ben, and Sebastian. And uh I'm Huddle D. I go by D. I work for Coin Kite. I'm the support specialist there. Uh we sell uh uh the cold card Q, uh MarkV, Block Lock, SAS card, Tap Signer, um things like that. Um and if you guys want to introduce yourself real quick and we can get started. >> My name is Ror Shinfeld. I'm the CEO of Breeze and we do Lightning Stuff. >> Yeah, my name is Ben Kaufman. I work on wallets. I do BitKit at Synonym. >> My name is Bastian T. I'm the CEO of SA chip and we provide a hardware solution based on smart card. >> Awesome. So maybe we'll start on L1 and then we maybe can progress to lightning L2 and and the future. Um I know the last panel was talking about single sig and multisig and things like that. So might be a little repetitive but um we'll have a fresh uh fresh ideas from other people here. Um in terms of uh seedwords um are those um still good? you know, I I see a lot of people trying to push for social uh backups and and other things like that. Do you guys think that um seed backups are going to last uh into the future and maybe um what's uh a pro of it and what maybe are some pitfalls of of that? Well, do you want to go first? >> Sure. >> Uh so let's talk about the present before talking about the future for sure. I think uh we're seeing new technologies first users in general at least from our experience we're a B2B business so we our partners use our software in order to build wallets and definitely seed is still something that blocks Bitcoin adoption >> we see that across the board the more mainstream the app the more complaints we get from partners ers asking us like what's a better solution than kind of exposing seed to end users. So it's definitely an adoption problem of Bitcoin. Not just layer 1 by the way like lightning and other L2s are already also kind of interface with a seed. So it's it's a hard problem to solve. In the last year I think there are kind of two technologies that emerge that mitigate the seed the seed aspect of interacting with Bitcoin. One is TE trusted execution environment. So there are solutions like preview turnkey where you have a secured enclave on the cloud. The seed is secured there and you interface using web two authentication methods to the trusted execution environment. So users don't need to save the seed. They just interact with a cloud component that that where the seed is actually stored. That's a one solution that is highly popular and solutions like poly market metam mask are all kind of interfacing with with the secure enclaves. >> Another another solution that I personally like even better is pass keys. So pass keys are kind of the new way of authenticating in the web aim to replace passwords and now there's like a a standard across a web of a where you can derive a deterministic key from pass keys. >> Okay. >> So I think that really helps. So it's a way to to authenticate in your wallet. using biometrics or whatever other unique identity you have. You can use hardware wallets or or or or UB keys or other any any kind of standard authentication method and you can derive deterministic key and you don't need to remember your SID. The the underlying provider helps with that. So you can use Google passwords, iCloud, task key and and like proton and any any kind of authentication provider. I think this is something that really helps with mainstream. >> Lots lots of options there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think Ben, do you want to go ahead? >> Yeah. >> Well, yeah, I agree that using seed phrases as the main uh option for backups is not really ideal. It's not something that we want for the long term. Uh but I still think it's very useful that they are there. Um I think while maybe we want to do pass keys or we want to do these for uh the main backups for users, I think at least having the option, the ability of a user to export their seed is still extremely important and is definitely the best way if you want to unlock yourself from a single wallet and be able to move around uh and not have to trust that something that a server that something will still be there in the future. So I think for certain use cases even the majority maybe uh using tees or using pass keys or using whatever uh cloud backups whatever can be very good um but it cannot really replace the seed. It's more of a complimentary way or maybe even the main way but the seed phrases need to still be there and need to be accessible for the user >> 100%. Especially now when the interoperability is really bad between providers like there's zero interoperability between tees and even like export import of pass is very weak right now. >> Exactly. Yes. Yes. >> Everyone wants remote right? So they don't want to be interacting with other other apps. It's a new protocol, so it's just getting started, but I think we'll see at least with Android 17 coming out. I think we'll see Google supporting import export >> and I think uh iPhones, iOS will follow suit, but it takes time. Yeah, I think we've been ingrained in uh self- custody that we want our keys fully offline and I think you know obviously you guys there there's a middle ground there where yeah, you can have your hoorde offline um but you can still interact with with with pass keys and other things online that maybe have a smaller amount of funds. Do you kind of agree with kind of that that framing or or do you think we we fully go from offline key storage to actually these ask keys and things like that? >> Ask key can be offline. So you can have a for example a UB key. you can have your seed on a key on a physical device >> and you can kind of use pass keys as well. So I think there are like multiple options but I'm happy that we're in a in a place where we have like new technologies secure enclaves also is like kind of new in terms like trust like we haven't trusted secure enclave until the last year or so. So I think these technologies are opening us to more and more option but I agree with Ben like current the in the current state of things people still need to store their seeds. Yes, absolutely. I I'm a big proponent of seed seed phrase. I love seed phrases or seed words, sorry. And uh whether it's 12 or 24 words, having multiple backups especially is incredibly important. Um and just eliminating those um single points of failure. I think >> I was a diehard kind of seed advocate and I was like uh throughout my my my my career in Bitcoin, I was just just kind of didn't understand the issue with the seed. I still don't like personally I don't understand the issue with the seed >> but as I'm interfacing with more and more mainstream users it's definitely an issue and I can't argue with people what people feedback and what people are telling me about seeds >> well we're also competing with those ETFs and those treasury companies that you one click buy their paper IOU stock and then you don't have to secure anything so making it more convenient while remaining secure is obviously our goal and uh to uh help help other people with that. Bash, do you want to? >> But it's a good point regarding the ETF. People can buy Bitcoin, let's say, online. Um, but if you really want to own your Bitcoin, you need to have access to your keys and it's protected by your seed phrase. So, it's very important to keep the seed phrase on the long run, but as Roy said, we need to find tools that allow people to really easily manage their seed. So it could be through pass keys, tokens for example or any other solution that will allow people to quickly and easily back up their seat phrase without even knowing they are using a seat phrase. So that's I might be the goal for the next decade. >> Yeah, I I guess you know the the the uh the goal is you know how do you how do you keep uh grandma secure, right? if if how how can it be as easy as possible for grandma that she doesn't need to stamp seeds into a steel plate or or write them down and make sure she doesn't lose them. Um I I like to recommend BIP 85. I think BIP 85 is awesome for people like us that maybe are more power users that grandma's just getting started or your friend is getting started. Obviously there's trade-offs with being an Uncle Jim, right? Um you can give them the seedwords and then you have their backup. Say they lose it. um you can still recover for them, but maybe you hopefully tell them that you have that that backup for them so that they're not blindsided in case uh you go rogue, right? Um I think those are all uh important um factors when when self-custoing and and stamping things into physical and you know having those those backups and not having those single points of failures are important. Um let's let's move into multisig. Uh I know the the previous panel was talking about single sig versus multisey. Where do you guys stand on on multisync or does this pass key option um kind of help solve that issue? >> I think it depends on the use case. Uh I'm mostly kind of focused on kind of the daily spending use case. >> Low amounts, high high frequency, high velocity. So, so multisig in that regard, I'm not sure it makes sense because basically we're trying to replace your leather wallet with a with a with another hot wallet. >> Uh, so there are definitely use cases where it does make sense, but I think that's for higher amounts of Bitcoin than like your daily spending. >> Yeah, you want you want one key signing things. You don't want to have to go look for a bunch of >> you want to tap to pay basically. So where's the multisig when you tap to pay, >> right? Yes, >> it's kind of but if you're holding a substantial amount, you do want to protect it, >> right? >> Uh so I think multisig is definitely one of the best ways to protect your bitcoin. Agreed. >> But but still quite complex to set up for uh beginner. I mean if you jump in bitcoin uh you don't do multisc. So it's also as you said user experience is very important uh as you own bitcoin or if you want to pay with bitcoin uh in both case you need to find reliable solution that are really easy to set up and to use. So I think multisc is also great by far currently the best solution uh to to secure bitcoin but still complex to set up and also bring more information to back up the descriptor seed phrase and so on. So >> it's not very easy to set up. >> Yeah I I I in my mind I was mostly kind of thinking the bit key kind of use case. Yeah, >> that there's like an entity that signs >> is a cosigner. >> A cosigner. Yeah. >> And there's other options like Kasa and Unchained that also offer those custody models and things like that. >> Um I I I do lean a little more Unchained and them as well because you can you can export your your stuff out of their app and and and use it with other things and you're not kind of locked into their ecosystem a little bit. Um, but of course the ease of use for some other options are definitely beneficial for some people like like grandma and things that just want a quick one tap. Um, yeah, >> Ben worked on a project that tried to do social multisig. So I think that was an interesting experiment. >> Yeah. Um, yeah, I would say that multisig is super important and I've been working on it for quite a while in previous projects. Um, it's not for everyone and every situation, right? just like um there are tools for everything. You don't need a huge vault for $100. Uh that's where you don't need a multi-IG for small amounts. So it is a spectrum of what you need, what you have and what you need. Uh you may want a single SIG for uh stuff that you use day-to-day or stuff that you usually use and then multisig you keep uh large amounts. But it just it really depends on your on your situation and it's just a spectrum of the right solution for the right situation. >> I think there's a lot of there's a lot of products that offer a lot of different things on that spectrum. Um like we have a a tap signer at Coin Kite that's kind of a blind signer, but it's more of a you know maybe you have a it's a it's you're traveling with it and you don't want to bring a a cold car in your pocket. You want to have something in your wallet. So you you tap it, you have that pin on there, um and you can sign funds um easily. Um but it doesn't have a a screen on it. So you're you're you're taking that trade-off of of blind signing and trusting that app uh sort of rather than viewing all the transaction information on that screen uh per se. >> Yeah, it's always trying to balance security and convenience for the right case. So uh for daily spending you want a lot of convenience and security is not the highest concern but if you're talking about your main stack then of course security is the most important and convenience well if it takes time to spend or it's like complicated that's usually by design right is there a way to maintain security while having more convenience um fashion do you want to do you want to touch on that and kind of see where where do you draw the line or where do you think that best maybe middle ground is for that uh in in in 50 years or or something like like what are your ideas there? >> Well, so I'd say there is uh you always want the most secure and convenient wallet, right? You don't want to compromise on either as much as possible but eventually there is a trade-off between them and I don't think you can do a tradeoff for one wallet that will be for both right you want multiple wallets because you have multiple situations like you have your wallet in your pocket you have your bank account and you have savings and investments account um you have a physical vault sometimes for cash so it's the same situation with Bitcoin you want multiple options depending on what you do Um yeah, >> 100%. Um maybe let's go back to, you know, 2140 a little bit. Um people love to talk about uh inheritance and uh time locks. Um you know, locking up your funds for a certain amount of years so that even if someone comes to your house, um that there's no way for you to sign that transaction uh unless there's no way to do it unless unless you sign that PSPT and then broadcast it five years in the future, 10 years in the future. How how do you see that evolving? Do you do you see that more uh talked about? Um where do you guys stand on time locks and inheritance and how how to best um manage that? >> Well, I don't have something kind of intelligent to say about it. Just my personal I I'm thinking of I I can't trust any software long term. So for these type of use cases that you're talking like 20 30 years ahead, I can't be dependent on software. So for me, I'm completely analog when it comes to inheritance. >> Okay. >> No, I agree on that that it's you shouldn't depend on a specific software. But the good thing is that Bitcoin has time locks built into its script, right? So and now we al we also have standards. We have miniscript for it for example to easily represent it. So you don't need to trust a single software, but you have your standards defined and you trust Bitcoin itself. So you don't need to really change your trust assumptions anymore. Um it was a more of a struggle before miniscript. Uh it was still doable but without good standards for it. It was just a struggle. Now it's possible and it's uh I wouldn't say easy but it is definitely achievable for anyone that wants to do that and has um enough funds that they need a proper inheritance plan. >> Yeah. I was mostly referring kind of to the lower barrier of entry. >> Yeah. >> I don't know what would be the skills of my grandchildren. >> Of course. Of course. Yes. Um, >> I guess it's more so you you have a multisake scenario and uh you're going to use miniscript so that in the future they only need one one key to to sign away. But for for 20 years they're going to need two out of three and then it it decays into that single sake or the the one signature option. that might be a good uh way to futureroof them a little bit and then have have something to fall back to um in that scenario if you're gone or you can't find that key >> even if you have the underlying solution with a minuscript uh and solution that will be here in 10 years you still need to be sure that your children will be able to sign with that thing I mean it's not only uh the way that you can time lock your Bitcoin but also will they be able to sign something in 10 or 10 years. So it's also important to have the tools uh to let them easily uh sign the needed transaction, >> right? >> Yeah. You need to make sure that you have a plan both a technical plan that Bitcoin will be accessible and a plan of the let's say the social side of it of both having the actual legal title transferred to them uh so there is no dispute on who the Bitcoin is legally should go to after you're gone. uh you should make sure that they understand how they can access it. So you need to leave clear instructions and make sure that they're future proof. So they don't depend on okay go to this company and okay this company doesn't exist anymore so you'll have a problem. You need something that will be future proof >> and yeah it might not be the easiest but I do think it's very doable by now. >> Yeah sure and as you said future proof solution is the key. >> Yeah absolutely. Welcome to predict. [music] The world is a market. Everything is a market. Every headline moves the line. Every moment is your market. Call the moves. Bet on your instinct. Your prediction, your edge. Dual bits. Predict where everything is a market. Uh I've seen kind of more recently there's a lot of um lightning apps or even you know L1 like Nunchuk um they're kind of integrating these AI agents into spending your Bitcoin for you. Maybe you have a threshold of hey you can you're only allowed to spend a million SATs uh a month or or something like that. Um uh Nunchuk released something with Coal Card where you can sign via HSM where the seed lives offline. it it confirms with your cold card via USB and signs a transaction uh via that threshold in that policy whatever you set. Um what are your thoughts on kind of those AI agents integrating with uh with hardware wallets uh seeds in general? Um how do you see that uh evolving? >> Well, we we're definitely seeing more and more human interactions being dedicated to AI. like that's I think this trend is just going to get stronger and stronger as time goes by and in 2140 maybe we won't do anything and everything will be done for us by AI. That's a very plausible scenario. Uh so I don't think it's going away. I just I think every app it's not just money applications but any application will be more and more agentic friendly. uh and and I think uh it's challenging in Bitcoin because currently you need an application level solution that you're dependent on yet another middleware and not on the protocol itself. So I'm hopefully we'll have more op codes baked into Bitcoin that will allow us more flexibility and more more control, more power on the Bitcoin script level that will enable us AI accessibility in much more secured way, right? Well, and like you're saying like you know these these things can interact with maybe smaller amounts of funds. So even if something went wrong in the worst case scenario, you're you're not losing your entire hoard or things like that. At least to to to not, you know, you don't want to trust them, but you you do have to kind of >> currently currently you do a little bit. >> No, I'm saying if we're looking like 100 years ahead, the agency will shift from humans to AI. >> That's kind I think that's kind of the inherently assumption that I'm that I'm I'm I'm working on. and uh and and and if that's the case, technology needs to accommodate that, >> right? >> And and I don't think we have great solutions in Bitcoin right now for that. >> Well, and just self-custody advocate, people are very maybe skeptical of that because maybe they're not all coders and they do have to kind of lean on these things, but they're like, you know, I I know that they're safe, but only because you told me that they're safe or something like that. So gaining that trust over time time will help with that for sure as well. Do you guys want to touch on uh anything as well? >> I I think uh AI will be part of the next decade uh and uh for sure even for hardware stuff but as Roy said I share his vision. I really don't like to have many um other software on top of everything because in 15 years or 50 years maybe it will won't be working anymore. So uh if we go ahead we might say okay maybe the ultimate thing is the seed phrase because it will work uh until uh the end of Bitcoin mining. So um we need to find the solution. We will see that hardware wallet will evolve and and solution will embrace AI or stuff like that. But for people uh the simplest way to own Bitcoin is to have the syn%. >> Yeah, I think so. For now, I'll just keep it that everything is offline except something small that the AI can play with. But of course, for now, you should just keep it completely separated. I think in 50 100 years sure it's very possible that AI will manage all of it. Um definitely a possibility and seems even likely but >> unlikely. >> Seems very likely >> likely >> likely likely yeah likely >> but for the next 10 years for sure I don't think that I wanted to touch any of thing that is important to me. >> Um >> you don't want to be the guinea pig that maybe >> Yeah. I don't want to be the one that jumps first. >> Sure. Yeah, I can understand that. >> Uh in regards to uh lightning wallets, things like that. >> How do you see those evolving? [snorts] Like are like I know obviously it's kind of similar to this AI agent thing. Um I know uh not recently but semi-reently we've we've had splicing into like like you know channels and things like that. Channel management is a big uh talk that people don't want to don't want to do. they just want it just happen in the background. How do you see that uh evolving and um becoming more convenient and easy for people? So for a while, lightning was uh the only second layer that that we had in order to scale Bitcoin and we when we said lightning we we're actually were talking about payment channels. Erh I think again in the last year or so there are new layer 2 technologies that came into Bitcoin spark arc gravel circuits nextg BTVM solutions. So I think the future the present and for the foreseeable future we see a future where you have multiple sub networks with different trust profiles like spark arc but even custodial stuff like ecash and and and and fedi and other and other uh types of solution and lightning is evolving to be from an implementation layer payment channel it's it's evolving proving to be the interoperability layer between these multiple sub networks. >> Sure. Uh only at Breeze like we support three flavors of lightning. We have uh one build on top of native lightning. We have one build on top of uh liquid. We have one build on top of spark. We might add arc. So I think kind of that's the the future that we see. Lightning is as an as a payment channel is no longer the best tool for the job when it comes to the last mile solution. Meaning it won't serve end users and we'll have different trust profiles, multiple sub networks, all interoperable via the lightning network. >> Similar like uh the cut the end users in a city and the lightning is kind of the road highways >> the highways and things like that. Okay. >> Nice. >> Yeah. Well, I don't have much to add. they want to be a bit controversial or something but no I mostly agree with war on that. Um I think the having multiple networks which are way more comfortable right now than using lightning which is uh if you want to do it in a non-custodial way it's quite difficult. Um so having these networks as new options I think it's very interesting. Um and then for people that really need uh decentralization and really need uh and want to be completely censorship resistant or whatever then using lightning and taking the extra effort makes sense and I think it's important that we'll have it but for the majority uh we just want to do payments of small amounts and are usually okay with that. I think having other options like arc like spark is a very good way uh to solve it. I think also native lightning will get easier because now people are accustomed to interact with the cloud and own a piece of the c the cloud like all the AI interaction is basically you're building software that get deployed to the cloud and that was a major barrier of entry to normal users but the more AI functionality and interaction users will have the easier it will be for them to run a lightning software in the cloud Awesome guys. I want to thank you guys for coming out today and thank you to the audience for taking time to uh listen to us up here on stage. Thanks. >> Thank you. [music] >> Every year this community comes together [music] to celebrate, to debate, to build what comes next. [music] And every year the stage gets bigger. [music] Sound money center stage. So where do [music] you go to celebrate the next chapter in Bitcoin history? You come home. [music] Nashville. July 2027.