Déjouer le système : battre les banques à leur propre jeu | Bitcoin 2026

Hi everybody. Here to talk about uh cross between Bitcoin and banking. Um I'm Anthony Maglaka, co-founder of Five Bells. We're a programmable um escrow tool you can use on Bitcoin disintermediate banks. Um you guys want to introduce yourselves and then we'll get into it. >> Absolutely. Hey everybody, I'm I'm Will Reeves, founder and CEO of Fold. >> I'm Alex, the founder and CEO of River and we do Bitcoin banking. and I'm Harsha, the founder and CEO of Magnolia. >> And so it's 2008 and white papers released and it talks about a system that allows two counterparts to exchange value without a financial intermediary released in the heart of the crisis. Um it's a way to become less reliant on banks way to opt out of the system. It's 2026. Everybody in Bitcoin wants to become a bank. Um, feels like we talk a lot about financial engineering in the space these days, a lot about how to become a bank, the cross between Bitcoin and banking, and not a lot about things that are happening on chain that continue to allow you to not become reliant on banks. And so, here with the experts at the cross between Bitcoin and banking to talk about, are we on the right track? Um, so Will, I'll start with you. Do you think we're on the right track? Are we staying to first principles using Bitcoin native things or are we just building Bitcoin for the existing financial infrastructure? >> I think it's everything all at once when you get there. I think there's incredible work being done on both sides. How do you bring Bitcoin into traditional banking? How do you bring banking concepts into, you know, trustless or trust minimized protocols like Bitcoin? But since 2008, I think two things are really important that have happened. Uh, you both have the release of Bitcoin, which presents a almost diametrically opposed alternative to banking. You can't exit the banking system. Bitcoin gives you an exit. Bitcoin's 24/7 uptime. You can actually self-custody Bitcoin. All of these concepts are truly foreign in the traditional banking system. You cannot audit a bank the way you can audit the proof of reserves of a of a Bitcoin institution. So I think Bitcoin provides things that are almost the undoing of banks. But at the same time since 2008 another thing has happened where banks have essentially been compressed into a suite of APIs that anybody can access and use. Mr. Beast just launched a bank a couple months ago. Anybody can do it. And what's happening is is they're getting banks are getting, you know, taken on the flank by Bitcoin companies that are both making use of what makes Bitcoin incredible and special, but also leveraging the fact that what was used, what was once gatekept by banks, their services, are now freely available via APIs that um you know, ultimately I think is going to give an edge to those that privilege Bitcoin and what it can do and what the banks never do while at the same time providing the convenience that banks do give today. >> Alex, what do you think about that? >> Yeah. Um I mean I I definitely agree with what Will said and maybe to add may take take a little bit of a different direction. I think that um it was inevitable that there would be Bitcoin banks even how Finny predicted such and really what I always say is important is you know the vision for Bitcoin in my opinion wasn't that nobody ever trusts institutions. it's that you don't have to trust institutions and that's the power of Bitcoin is um as Will said it's there's an exit door now and that having the exit door fundamentally changes how the institutions operate and um that's what we're seeing happen that's what was meant to happen and so I do think we're on track and I um I gave a talk earlier saying you know I think that what we're seeing is sort of the Bitcoin exchanges building towards up towards banking and banks building towards down towards Bitcoin or whatever you want to call up and down. And so, um, yeah, I think overall things are going well. >> And if we're going to keep banks honest with Bitcoin the way you describe, to me it means we need to be building things on chain, Bitcoin native devices that allow you to use the network in creative ways. Well, well, yes. I mean, I think we you already can. Well, no. I would say that all that's really important is that you can self c you can self- custody that it's like decently easy to self-custody and move your Bitcoin without trusting anyone else. I don't think like we need some really rich onchain ecosystem of complex financial instruments to fulfill to realize the benefit of Bitcoin. It's cool that we can do that, but I don't think that's necessary to realize its potential. >> I I'll take the other side of this. I I don't think self-custody is all it's going to take in order to beat banks of their own game. Specifically because right now like banking is two like factions, right? It's the regulators, but it's also the institutions that get regulated. And when we talk about banking in Bitcoin, what we're talking about is getting the institutions that are regulated to actually use and hold uh Bitcoin one way or another, either either providing financial services or providing uh like, you know, new leverage opportunities for a lot of people to actually use like an asset that goes up and down, right, to their benefit. Uh the problem for so for so long has been these regulated institutions have not been open-minded to the cool things you can do with an asset that traditionally just goes up over time, right? and they certainly don't even begin to understand the things you can do with a self-custodied asset that goes up over time. I think right now, especially this year in particular, the tables are going to get flipped on a lot of banks as Bitcoin native banks come online and challenge them directly in the only like place that matters, which is revenue. Yeah. When I I I've started to think about the Bitcoin network less about the coin and the price, so to speak, and more about the ledger. Because when you hire a bank, what are you doing? you're asking them to record keep for you in one way or another. It's interesting to think about if we already have a ledger on the Bitcoin blockchain, why don't we just use that as a disintermediating service? Are you using anything today Bitcoin native that's interesting to you? Like what are you seeing out there that's useful that harks on chain as opposed to using a bank? >> Yeah. So, one thing that's cool, this is actually hilarious. You said onchain. This is explicitly offchain with lightning. Um, but something that's been really cool with something like lightning is >> still counts. Still counts >> is uh we can actually onboard a lot of these other like networks like Arc and Spark uh with Lightning without going through a pretty intense like coin listing process which you know is a is a big compliance hassle, right? And so we can effectively uh like onboard like folks businesses that are doing business like here there and everywhere while only having uh a compliance program set up for just Bitcoin alone. that's that's been immensely powerful. So, in this kind of like weird way, by the way, like for background, I've worked on Lightning for like, you know, seven or eight years. You know, I love the thing. Uh I I'm very aware of its flaws, but it's been excelling at this kind of almost like interoperable AC like thing where you don't have to buy into a direct relationship with Magnolia. You can just buy into Lightning and therefore get a route to us directly. It's actually pretty interesting. And so, Alex, um, where do you want to see Bitcoin usage go? You know, you had mentioned self-custody gets us there, but then what does that look like for Bitcoin usage 5 10 years from now? Like, where do you want to see that head? >> Well, I would love to see Bitcoin continue to grow in its role as a medium of exchange. I think we're still very early there. I think we have a long ways to go and it's a little unclear. You know, the the thought experiment I like to have is um you know, okay, let's say that we had a perfect layer 2. It was perfectly censorship resistant, no transaction fees, um and and it had every thing we could ever possibly imagine. Like would you know would that unlock people using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange? And I think like the answer is like well maybe a little bit more but not like drastically overnight, right? there's still more to the story there around just on onboarding people to Bitcoin as money like sort of maybe it's a marketing problem, maybe it's an economic and volatility problem. So, um I I think like I want to see Bitcoin go there and I think like getting more people holding Bitcoin will get us there eventually, but and and the work that companies like Block and Square are doing will sort of hopefully continue to accelerate Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. Um, another area that I actually think is genuinely interesting and has a, you know, solves problems really well for people is, um, you know, we're seeing like the collateralized lending on chain. Um, we're actually seeing that's where the best economics are. That's where the best prices are for borrowing against your Bitcoin. Maybe it's like an L2. Um, like Coinbase has a lending product powered by their wrapped Bitcoin on on base. And um objectively right the rates are better than any centralized lending protocol or sorry any centralized lender. Um we're talking about you know 4 to 5% instead of 8 to 12%. So literally half the price and because capital you know um you know getting capital for loans there's much lower friction to deploy capital and and and and lend it out. So I think that's super interesting and you know um interested to see where that goes. >> Will you've been in the space a long time? Same question to you. Where do you want to see Bitcoin usage go 5 10 years out? >> So when we as I've been building Fold over the years, I think uh there's a habit in the community because we're it's an insular very technical where we get lost in L2s and onchain or offchain. And uh we we built down bridges that you know were failed experiments. You know we we did some heavy into lightning before. Lightning is great on on many merits. Um, but ultimately I think where we found success is, you know, it's less about am I using an L2 or is it offchain or off-chain is are we bettering someone's life with Bitcoin and that is the first thing because there's so many other hurdles after that and before that is if you can nail that everything opens up. you have a user now that is self ideally is either accumulating or self-custodying Bitcoin or has the ability they've seen the magic that Bitcoin can bring and so we try to look at what's the shortest distance between getting someone to that point and so we have always focused on how to make it easy to accumulate it to hold it and ultimately to self-custody it when you're ready and our customers range from many who are getting their first little bits of Bitcoin to those that are entirely living on Bitcoin and personally I live I don't have a bank account besides fold I live entirely on fold and with all the great limitations that are there and so I hope that we don't get lost in you know technical discussions that block us from truly finding the shortest distance between making Bitcoin valuable to more people in the world you know the Satoshi quote you know it if you don't believe it or don't get it um it might make some sense to get some in case it catches on. You know, we're still saying that in many ways. I would like a proliferation of products that are meaningfully increasing the purchasing power of people, making people more financially stable, happier, optimistic, and that's that's that's the real win. Do you think L2s like Lightning, like these these, you know, protocols that scale Bitcoin, do you think they're primarily going to be used through institutions or are like retail customers like that use like River, Fold, and the like, are they going to be the ones that um that ultimately use it directly? >> Like historically, right? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most of the numbers on uh like lightning versus onchain Bitcoin, uh Lightning has always been in the range of 5 to 10% of onchain Bitcoin, right? Like, at the end of the day, that's that's where it's lived, you know, since since my time at Fold. I don't know if it's it's changed at all, but it's probably still right there. That sucks and that that's not good, right? So, it's clearly not like doing its job. Well, um, you know, I think my favorite take on lightning is from the founder of Moon, Daario. Uh, he sees Lightning, and I think it's similar, um, to what he said was it's sort of like this, um, connective protocol for all of the L2 ecosystem popping up, whether that's ARC, whether that's, you know, other L2s. It's sort of this interoperability layer between anything that's not L1. And I think that the jury is still out on whether the average, you know, human is going to directly use Lightning uh and have a self-custody lightning wallet themselves or are they going to use something else that like is plugged into the Lightning network that just makes all of these separate systems intercompatible. You guys mentioned collateral a few times so far and really since the beginning of the year. I've noticed the world finally come to us, institutions finally come on to the fact that Bitcoin is good collateral. they're happy to accept it as collateral. Um, which has been a real positive um, in the space because I've spent my career so far in the 10 years that I've been in Bitcoin like trying to convince um, institutions that it's not scary. It's actually a lot safer than a lot of the things you're working with. It's a lot more transparent. What do you think to draw institutions further to bit like closer to Bitcoin? Like what how how do you convince them this is not scary. You can do more things with this than just park it in an address on an exchange. >> Yeah, I I've got so many thoughts on this right now because like the entire industry is changing quite dramatically when it comes to lending on collateral assets. Number one, the biggest way to get institutions by far is going to be supplying the stable coin like you know like just massive amount of capital that's moving in that direction because stable coins are incredibly necessary for the coll like in collateralized lending uh like schemes, right? and they need a lot of lending power and right now they're all getting pretty heavily restricted and everyone's searching right now for uh for any like source of of capital and I' I've been seeing some some crazy deals in that direction. Uh but also more importantly, man, this is 2026. This is the year the the 1099 DAS are going to get issued. As a result, if I sell my Bitcoin trying to spend it, I get taxed on that, right? Like 30ish% even more. Uh a way around that is taking a loan out against my Bitcoin. Uh, and that's a good way to effectively sell the Bitcoin I have, spend it without having that tax burden. That is, I think, going to really drive collateral use cases in Bitcoin going forward. I'm very excited for that. >> But then, you know, for for those that are outstanding or for ideas that you have, but you need to draw institutions closer, like how is it that you get folks at large institutions or banks to get comfortable with Bitcoin? So one of the ways we do it is just plain vanilla insurance. A lot of times that's just a box that needs to be checked on a due diligence document or you know some ODD that you know some third party OD provider and telling them that you have insurance that look even if you don't understand this and I'm wrong and this fails worse comes to worse there's an insurance that backs it up. Like how else are you you guys talk to institutions all day long in the space. How else are you guys tell like getting them comfortable? Are there novel ways that you're using to get them there? >> Man, you don't make them comfortable. You beat them with revenue, right? Uh like banks that are doing that that are weak and need more revenue, they'll see what you're doing and they'll change whatever they have to do in order to beat like their direct competitors. That's the only way to beat them. Uh like if if you're trying to like derisk this asset, derisking, I think, is just an exercise to get around the fact that they don't want it enough. That's all it is. >> Well, what do you think? So we I you know we definitely deal with institutions uh from the kind of financial sector but a big part of Fold's work is actually dealing with uh traditional businesses outside of institutions and I think they're an interesting group to look at. Um you know we we just launched a uh a a Bitcoin bonus program with Stake and Shake. So all 13,000 employees are getting bonused in Bitcoin 21 cents an hour drops in their account live. This is just to regular employees and we're having a lot of discussions with this with with you know other businesses who want to do this. We do a big rewards program and often uh the the way we get to the center is not necessarily hey I need you to believe 100% in Bitcoin but is exposing to them how bitcoin can materially either derisk their business or make their business better. So the Steak and Shake example, you know, there are recruiting uh is going up in terms of applicants. They're getting retention longer. They're getting excitement from their employees. And from an hourly wage business, that is an incredible superpower to have to stand out from the pack. And so we just like to to drain, you know, really educate them, you know, again, getting away from the the world of ideas of Bitcoin and more down to like what's important to you? What do what what where is going to what's going to move the needle? Do we want to save some money? Do we want to retain more? Do you want more customers? Do you want a bigger business? We've deployed Bitcoin in all of those ways that help that. And many times, all it took was not a Bitcoin maximalist at the helm of the company. It was a great operator and someone who's a rational person. And I think there's many arguments to be made about Bitcoin that don't have to get technical, don't have to get scary, and simply made on terms that people understand. And that's what has at least made us successful. >> Alex, what how does River do that? Like how, you know, anything you could share with us? >> Well, at River, we we focus on serving individuals and small mediumsiz businesses. So, frankly, I don't really care if the big institutions get on board with Bitcoin. I'd rather take their c clients and make them mine. >> That's more Bitcoin than anything. Like that that's that's really getting to the heart of it. You're you're building a better bank in some ways. >> Yeah. Like I you know if the big banks get on board with Bitcoin or not doesn't matter to me. I'd rather their clients leave them and open accounts at River. >> Sure. >> Fair enough. So to that end, you know, when you think about other things to offer your clients, whether it's, you know, working with a third party, what are you seeing in the space specifically in Bitcoin that excites you right now outside a river? Like what's one project in the space you get excited about when you think about it? Um well I mean honestly like I mentioned I actually think that um it's going to be really interesting to watch these Bitcoin L2s like as they start to come into production like Alpin uh which is like a Bitcoin native L2 that will have protocols like Morpho uh which are I think pretty well constructed uh you know DeFi protocols for uh collateralized lending um because I think it's going to objectively be the most economically optimal way assuming assuming uming, you know, you can get past the technical risks of this whole new paradigm, which, you know, there definitely are new risks here that don't exist with centralized lending, but um I think it's going to be the the economically optimal way to borrow against Bitcoin, and I think that will be a big I think that's going to make a bit of a splash. >> Plus plus one for Alpen. What they're doing is super cool. >> You know, something I like in the space that's maybe a little more simple is this Tether wallet that's just been released. And the only assets it covers is USDT and Bitcoin. And I like that from the perspective of those are the sorts of things that are just going to draw people to Bitcoin. Like all the USDT holders in these third world countries or around the world and they've done a great job with their street teams to like propagate actual use of this, but just having that sit next to something that acts as a Bitcoin wallet as well. It feels a little bit more um you know direct to consumer. It feels like a good excuse to layer in products that could excite people and incentivize them to get onto Bitcoin. >> Well, I mean, it's it's not actually that hard to beat the banks at their own game right now. You know, their entire model is very extractive. Almost every single activity you make on a banking platform is in service of the bank's interests. And that's a just a reality that we've had. And the reason why we have that reality is that there's no way to exit the banking institutions. And so they they compete on modest terms. But you look at this platform here on on this stage. You know, you you can uh go to River and they're going to pay 3 whatever it is percent on cash holdings. None of the banks are doing that. You can go to Fold, you can earn rewards on a debit card. None of the banks are doing that. You can on a credit card. and and all of this is in service and at a a competitive advantage to us because we see the value that is that is locked in and that is not going back to the user and often times you can just draw a schematic of all the activities you do at a bank and actually reverse the flow of value back to the customer and that's a wonderful product to to bring to market and will be competitive and so uh I agree with Alex I I would love the institutions to take a lot longer because their customers will increasingly and are increasingly coming to us. Um, but I think it's inevitable. I think they're moving very fast and I don't I don't think they misunderstand our space. I think they know very well how they can benefit and they just want to be well positioned and we're seeing that in real time right now. Do you think that's why one of the reasons why they're gumming up the clarity act is because it's just so easy to it's much easier to compete with them now in the age of AI in the mobile age than it was you know 5 10 years ago even >> well you it's still very difficult to compete from a lawfare or regulatory perspective and that's ultimately the the moat that they have and again Bitcoin and Bitcoin Bitcoin banks offer a model that is simply more valuable and transparent and provides this incredible opportunity for exit that does not exist in this in the normal system. And that is a that is a gift that is being increasingly recognized by individuals, families, businesses of all sizes. And it's a m it is just clear momentum. Again, I get back to working with the uh the teams over at Simple Mining or Stake and Shake where you have whole executive teams who are realizing the competitive advantage that Bitcoin can bring to them and they just like us here saying I hope our competition doesn't doesn't learn this and jump on because we have a window that is going to be in our benefit and ultimately that's just forwarding very simple aligned ideas of a new system and I I I think that's a very very noble way to do it. That also is a great business choice. >> Last question for you both. Is there do you find people using Fold River Magnolia more for dollar banking once they're on your platform? >> All it's all about the dollar still. Even even people with Bitcoin um you know we were talking actually backstage and we were you know you know all of our problems are actually directly related to the dollar rails. Bitcoin actually functions quite well every day for our customers. All of the headaches all come from building and managing on the dollar rails. And uh it's getting that right is what's very important cuz that's what allow people to both jump into Bitcoin and reap those benefits without sacrificing the conveniences that they rely on to buy groceries, pay the mortgage, and uh make sure they're living a good life. Alex. Um, yeah, I would say, you know, historically most people use River just for Bitcoin, but over the last few years with the products we've launched like Bitcoin interest on cash, direct deposit, bill pay, we're trying to um show people what this new dual money banking app looks like. And so, increasingly, we've seen a lot of growth of people using River for their actual daily fiat banking needs, which haven't really changed. um even if they do hold Bitcoin, >> Bitcoin works, dollar rails don't. But I think in 2026 that's going to change. Right now specifically, the OCC is pretty open-minded about digital assets uh like bank charters, and we're seeing a a pretty big rush of uh of digital asset banks come to market. These are going to be direct market um like challengers and I think they're going to be able to do a lot of really interesting things that solve a lot of the big friction points all of us on the stage are very familiar with uh that don't really need to exist uh in the banking system. Things like chargeback risk, things like uh multiple day settlement times, those don't actually need to exist. Uh and certainly I think a lot of these new banks are going to challenge that. Um as far as how do people use Magnolia? They move money through and withdraw pretty quickly. It seems like works out for us. Awesome. Thanks for having us, guys. That's our time. Appreciate you being being here instead of another stage. Take care. >> Every year, this community comes together to celebrate, to debate, to build what comes next. And every year, the stage gets bigger. Sound money center stage. So where do you go to celebrate the next chapter in Bitcoin history? You come home. Nashville, July 2027.